to start a thread about trans panic because there have only been seventy six already

[GustyParson]

Trans people want to steal your rights! And stroke your cat. They want to colonise your child's reading books, infiltrate your favourite prisons, appropriate the gold medals you would otherwise win for your peerless skills on the pummel horse, take the best seats on the Tube, demand that midwives talk exclusively about pregnant fathers, haunt your preferred changing rooms, run rampant through the Brownie Guides, go unchallenged in every echelon of the WI, burn all your favourite pronouns in an industrial furnace, benefit from all your oppression, demand your pet dog be addressed as Mx, frolic carelessly across the flower bed you've only just planted for God's sake, insist that there are more than two genders, require to be recognised as the gender 'combine harvester' one day and the gender 'quail' the next, piss on the toilet you wanted to reserve for your friends, and call you Cis which is like totally cruel because it sounds like sissy.

Alternatively, trans people are people, they are not trying to hurt you, most of you have never met one, none of you need to feel threatened by them, and there really isn't a need to start fifteen threads a week fretting that they're going to steal your last Bourbon Cream, appropriate or destroy feminism, or change your baby's name from Thomas to Pixie. Seriously, calm down.

Notwhatiexpected I really did wonder why we were speaking about the CIA.

stinkingbishop I'm sorry to read about the situation you and your daughter face, it must be very hard. Please be aware that despite what many of us may post on here and how many of us may feel about the erosion of women's rights and freedoms, if other posters are like (and I think many are) we are as nice as pie to trans people in real life.

I am sure many posters can tell the difference between 'issues' and concerns as opposed to real people. When I am faced with a real person i do my best to be nice to them, pleasant, speak to them how I would want and hope to be spoken to etc. I really believe women who engage on this issues on social media are not going to be the ones being aggressive and making people feel uncomfortable. Or at least I hope so.

Moussemoose "And if you genuinely thought segregation was useless then why bother having any segregation at all? Exactly! Why do we separate on grounds of sex when it doesn't protect women?"

Well, it does protect women, if you spot a dodgy looking bloke in the women's toilets you can report him. But at some point, if the politicians get their way, then you won't be able to, because he might think he is a woman!

"Men don't need permission to barge in and assault or film women when they are vulnerable." no they do not, but as a society I still want there to be as much protection as possible. A locksmith once told me, if a burger really want to get in, no lock will stop them!

Number one - I didn't use that locksmith, number!

two - I still got a lock, since some protection is better than none and

three - I got a burger alarm...

rather than just leave my front door open and wait to be burgled!

Datun at "Wed 29-Mar-17 11:16:26" Spot on as ever.

stinkingbishop "we did go as far as traipsing to the fertility clinic to freeze sperm but she just found it too painful in the end." I've got a friend who is a transexual woman, she was very unhappy about having a penis and had no desire to use it. The fact your daughter found the whole sperm bank think so difficult kind of indicates how genuine this feels for the current time.

"At the beginning I was very 50:50. Increasingly I am convinced she is actually right. Despite all the challenges she has never seemed more comfortable in her own skin."

I think it must be hugely difficult as a parent to know what to do, and I think the fact you are supportive, while still having reservations, is actually a real sign of support. It is so much easier to support when we completely agree with someone else.

I would never deny that there is a genuine trans experience and like others have said when people transition fully they just want to live their lives.

My friend goes stealth. She is in a long term relationship with a man, but most of the people she meets never know she has a trans history. In one sense this is what is so worrying with people like Jazz and all the high profile trans children and teens, they are living their lives in the spotlight, it makes it so hard to know which way is up (I would imagine).

Megatharium "There are no laws and no proposals for laws that will erode that right in any way"

The rights of women and girls are already being eroded, had you not noticed>

TabascoToastie

"12) Lesbians are not being "forced" to have sex with transwomen"

How do you know all this? How are you everywhere seeing everything!

"The first experience that did make me start to feel suspicious of male transition was when I was 18 and a genderqueer-identifying man who had never pursued any kind of transition raped my best friend, a woman unacquainted with insular trans community politics. I had indirectly introduced her to this guy via mutual friends. After the rape, she told me what he did; I had been in the next room the whole night, awake, talking to someone I didn’t even like. I had no idea it was happening. When she let our mutual friends know, we both assumed they would have her back; after all, they referred to their apartment as a safe space for rape survivors. But instead, her rapist changed his pronouns on Tumblr, claimed to have schizophrenia, and then said that he couldn’t possibly have raped her, because of the power dynamics between a “cis” woman and a transwoman. He moved back to LA a few months later, without ever taking any steps towards transition. When he got there, he told his old friends he wasn’t schizophrenic or trans anymore."

4thwavenow.com/2016/04/27/shrinking-to-survive-a-former-trans-man-reports-on-life-inside-queer-youth-culture/

Italiangreyhound
"Well, it does protect women, if you spot a dodgy looking bloke in the women's toilets you can report him. But at some point, if the politicians get their way, then you won't be able to, because he might think he is a woman"

If I saw anyone acting in an inappropriate way in the toilet I would report them. Man, woman or spaniel!
I am baffled as to why people keep on stating they would be scared to report. If someone does X and X is wrong report it. They can call you as many names as you want but you state you saw them doing X.
This attitude whereby you are scared of being reported for something was the issue in the Rotherham abuse scandal. I work in an environment where we have lots of minorities and people with 'issues'. If anyone is behaving inappropriately anywhere we report. We do get accusations, we point out the inappropriate behaviour we discuss and move forward.

Also, no one wants o remove locks on toilet doors! An individual cubicle will still offer privacy and limited protection.

Italiangreyhound

"Well, it does protect women"...... To quote well er you......

"How do you know all this? How are you everywhere seeing everything!"

Why exactly do you think there is sex segregation in the first place, Mousse?

Am off to work now but.....

Sex segregation was certainly not to protect women! God forbid.

Most 'modesty' laws were introduced to keep women in their place. Women were removed from the pits in the 19th century not to protect them but because they took their clothes off due to the heat.

Well I think the maintenance of sex segregated facilities into the 21st Century as being all about prudish Victorian morality is highly debatable, but then do you think we should get rid of them entirely?

I don't want to wait till a man in the toilets does something inappropriate before I report him. I want to report him for being there.

Up until now a man (who is not supposed to be in your toilet) is automatically considered dodgy.

With the new laws, his presence is not considered dodgy. Neither is it dodgy if you looks at you.

Is it dodgy if he stands in front of the mirror adjusting his bra? Is it dodgy if he changes his tights/stockings in the basin area? Is it dodgy if he keeps glancing at you re-applying your lipstick? If he asks you a question about your make up/dress? None of these things would be particularly questionable if a woman was doing them.

A man with AGP will be getting a raging hard on doing all this.

You might only start to suspect something if he gets a little too intimate - asking about control pants? Telling you he feels 'hormonal'?

I'd love you to tell a policeman you were uncomfortable because another 'woman' was asking you about make up and dress sense. Your boundries would already have been breached. You know it and he knows it. But there's nothing you can do.

Anyone who has kids knows that 'he's looking at me funny' means that one kid has really managed to stick the knife in with just a glance. And the response is ALWAYS 'What? What! I'm just looking!!'

Yeah, love. Whatever.

exit

Ive attached a photo of the recipe

We though it would be nice with a blue brie as well

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2013/02/11/trans-woman-student-abused-and-shoved-out-of-toilets-at-leeds-university/

Posted on the other thread. This is an example of the type of person who thinks women shouldn't be able to have boundaries.

Whatever happened, who shoved who first etc this creepy male should not have been in the women's toilets. It is threatening behaviour.

That risotto does sound gorgeous actually.

Am trying to work out how to screenshot the recipe in case the thread is pulled

People are scared, nervous to report things they feel are off all the time - jesus, rape and abuse victims often report nothing.

"Sex segregation was certainly not to protect women! God forbid."

And i know how lecherous and intimidating men can be from lots of first hand experience - i'd say the vast majority of women are happy with loos and changing rooms bring sex segregated and would prefer them to stay that way. Are you saying this is wrong?

"12) Lesbians are not being "forced" to have sex with transwomen"

Well I personally know 3 lesbians who have been put into very dodgy situations by transwomen (actually the 3 were put in situations by 2 transwomen...one transwoman did this twice at least)

Made to feel guilty for not wanting to sleep with a male. Called bigots as the male is just as much a woman as any other woman, and so on. One of the women actually ended up being assaulted (not sexually, physically, punched) for standing her ground and saying no to the 'surprise penis'

So whilst not technically 'forced'...assaulting someone for not wanting to shag you, or trying to pressure them to in anyway is rather rapey and extremely wrong, don't you agree?

Rather rapey. Never thought that was a phrase we'd need. Oh well.

Given how lecherous men are in mixed spaces, and how many comments women have to put up with, it beggars belief that so many people think it isn't problematic to allow them into women's spaces.

It's a very weird conversation this. Such a complete contrast of world view. And people line up so surprisingly. I'm vaguely liberal christian democratic socialist type of person. Basically want everyone to be happy and will bend over backward to help it happen. I work bloody hard on social inclusion of all kinds. I am not going to include transwomen at the cost of disadvantaging and excluding women though.

it beggars belief that so many people think it isn't problematic to allow them into women's spaces.

YY.

Of course, the pro-trans side says, you can just report it if anyone's being dodgy in the women's room -- man, woman, or other!

Yeah, except here's the issue. Men are by far more likely to be sexual creeps. So 5 years ago, if there was a creepy man in the women's room, staring and making women feel uncomfortable, this is how "reporting" it would go:

Concerned woman: Hi, there's a man in the women's room. He's leering and making the women there, especially the ones with kids, feel really uncomfortable.
Store manager: I'll call security. Thanks for letting us know.

Now, let's say you get rid of sex-segregated facilities, so that men belong in the same room as everyone else. You see a man in the women's room who looks at you and starts licking his lips suggestively. It's just the two of you there, no one else. You give him a cold stare, and he lifts up two fingers to his lips in a "V" shape and sticks his tongue between them.

You turn around to report him.

You: There was a man in the bathroom. He was making me really uncomfortable, staring at me and making obscene gestures.
Store Manager: (looks at you skeptically) Are you sure? Maybe he was just trying to be friendly.
You: This didn't feel friendly. At all.
Store Manager: Well, maybe just wait for him to clear on out and then do your business after. It'd just be he-said, she-said, and I don't want to get in the middle of it.

That's how disputes between men and women about things that happened in areas where they both belong, with no cameras, happen now. They're "he said, she said" and there's no "proof" of harassment. When there are sex-segregated facilities, even the fact of a man being there is construable as harassment and unwelcome contact. If we have no sex-segregated facilities, every creep gets the benefit of the doubt and must be proven guilty of actual harassment, to the standards of the law, before anything can happen to them.

Recently

Young man in the female toilets at a college.

Staff member:"You need to get out as you are acting in a threatening way"
Student:"its because I'm black isn't it?"
Staff member: "No it's because you are acting in a threatening way"
Student:"I'm going to report you for racism "
Staff member:"You try that, now go away "

This ^

The point is a man shouldn't be in the women's toilets. It's threatening behaviour in and of itself. Not the case with gender self id, which is what many transpeople want and the way the law is going. It legitimises the idea of obvious male people in the ladies'. What you are advocating is that women should prepare to feel less secure and less able to protect themselves or challenge men.

Went to the sky gardens in London at the weekend. Fully enclosed cubicle toilets. Mixed. You should have seen the faces from the men and boys that they had to queue to use the toilet. No urinals. They didn't like it - lots of moaning in the queue and younger boys thought they could just walk to the front as they were clearly not use to having to queue. Very amusing.

Were not pleasant to use though as the floor was covered in pee.

Moussemoose

"Well, it does protect women"...... To quote well er you......

"How do you know all this? How are you everywhere seeing everything!"

very clever. Well, here is my opinion on it. As far as I am aware all attacks on women (by men) happen in places where males and females are both present. If there are places where women are present and men are not allowed to be, and their presence raises suspicion, like single-sex toilets, then those single-sex places will be safer for females.

I've not (fortunately) experienced much harassment from males but have had some. Unwanted attention, bum touched, man trying to kiss me, man carrying me onto the dance floor when I did not want to dance with him, etc, male pushing to go further than I felt comfortable with in dating situations. Every single time it has happened I have been in a mixed sex space (not in a single sex space).

So on a sample of one - the safest places for me, as a woman, from males, is where there are no males!

Maybe others could also share why they feel single-sex spaces are safer for females (if, indeed they do).