To not understand the Tony Blair hatred thing

[smashedinductionhob]

I remember Tony Blair being very popular in his day and recall him doing reasonably good things.

I do remember very clearly the run up to the Iraq war and saying to my husband that I did not agree with it as there was no actual plan and the US public seemed to think Saddam Hussain was connected to 9/11 which he wasn't.

I remember passionate supporters of ethnic minorities in Iraq supporting him and only a few brave clever people like Obama calling it as a mistake.

I failed to demonstrate. The dossier was identified in Parliament (by a small minority) as dodgy before the war started but most of us went along with it.

It was clear to me at the time that the PM was supporting the US as a matter of principle (a lousy principle but fairly obvious).

How did we get from there to TB as hate figure? Is he just a scapegoat?

Why is Bush more popular with the Americans than Blair is with Brits?

He's not.

Blair only got in though default due to the death of John Smith, who would have been a brilliant Labour leader and PM. It was a tragic day for the UK when he died.

It chills me to think how so many posters here are not even challenging the idea of imposing wars on foreign countries and lands that actually have human beings living there and have been ravaged by dictators that have been very best friends of ours when we needed them and installed them there.
I think a lot of people here have probably not been extensive users of the availability of information on internet and the start of social media that happened right after the Iraq AND Afghanistan wars that US/UK perpetrated. We don't talk about Afghanistan I wonder. May be because not much oil was involved.
The Hunger Games really did get the point very well.

I remember the huge sense of joy and relief when Blair and New Labour were first elected after years of Tory rule. How much better things became, there was a real feeling of optimism.

As for the war, Seahorses gives the figures. A huge majority voted in parliament for war, most people in the country were in favour though if you ask them now they will probably deny it . I remember watching question time, when the audience booed and shouted down the one panel member who urged caution.
It is easy with hindsight to condemn the war and to second guess the motives behind it, but don't run away with the idea that it was forced on an unwilling nation.

That's mainly due to the facts it's controlled by those who don't believe in compromise and don't care about winning elections!
You have short term memory loss. Blair started those wars. Brown got the recession (I know he didn't start it so please hold your horses but it didn't help Labour at all). The Miliband guy I never understood. He was very nerdy and all that but leader? Sorry.
I don't think going back to the square one is the answer here. No way.

Read the Chilcott report.

And this, which reminds us that he referred to single mothers as 'workless'

www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-a5a7-Carers-have-a-right-to-not-be-impoverished,-overworked-and-exploited#.WNbvs_nyjIU

OP I don't know what your motives are for posting this. You've been given very good, valid reasons for why BLIAR is hated so mch but you don't seem to understand them. Which makes me think you were never going to change your mind, so why bother posting in the first place?!

It is easy with hindsight to condemn the war and to second guess the motives behind it, but don't run away with the idea that it was forced on an unwilling nation
I have said it so many times but I will repeat: I don't belong to the generation that had a voice then. I can't relate to anything you are trying to say. It doesn't make sense to me.
For our generation, the thing that doesn't make sense is how come someone who did that kind of "filly", is still out of jail, no matter how much public backing was behind that war at the time. No matter how many Parliament members voted for the war.
And I certainly don't think any of you will ever convince anyone from our generation that going soft on Blair is an option. It's a generation gap thing I think.

HoldBackTheRain
I think there is a pattern here. Please read my posts above.
I strongly believe no one is going to discuss even one line of Chilcot on this thread. EVER.

folly, not filly
I have given up on my grammar at Mumsnet now but this is so my phone.

He donates every penny he receives in royalties from his autobiography to the royal British legion

I think what we are facing here is the propaganda thing: if we keep repeating "he didn't do much wrong at home", the wars might go away as they are all In the forrin lands anyway and we have already buried them soldiers, haven't we?
Sorry. It's the age of social media. NOTHING goes away here. And I think it's great.

Thatcher did loads of groundwork for the NI peace process too but Blair brought it off. He managed partly through good timing as the IRA were ready to concede that the military struggle was not winnable or even sustainable. But he still managed to achieve what looked impossible. I don't like him but give the man some credit where it's due.

Social media is only 'great' valentine if what you read is actually true.

He donates every penny he receives in royalties from his autobiography to the royal British legion
I nearly fell out of my bed laughing.
Are you for the real? i am completely sure Hitler was very friendly towards his friends too. All of them served his purpose afterall.
How come the parents of dead soldiers and the millions of Iraqi/afghani civilians don't appreciate his generosity then?

Sorry, just got home, catching up.....

Of course I've seen the Chilcot results. I prefer to believe what it says, both exonerating and condemning Blair, rather than skewed interpretations to suit an agenda.

Social media is only 'great' valentine if what you read is actually true.
Yes that's a very valid point. We have to analyse it very carefully. Lots of us do and you must have seen the revolt against Trump/Farage etc.
Social media also presents pictures. Pictures of dead children on beaches, blown up buildings in live transmission and lots of other such war porn.
All you have to do is have a very skeptical and thorough mind.
It also takes lots of practice to sift through that kind of info. So I am under no illusion that my DCs will be teaching me things in a decade.
I don't mean disrespect or ageism. I just think it's the way thing are.
For example, a very big lacking in the younger liberal left is they have been through one big recession and were quite disoriented. I think it's one reason for Corbyn to be so popular amo g them. Just a few days ago, I was asking for details of the Labour history another thread. Like I said, we need a lot of work but for heavens sake don't bring that war criminal back. And please somebody quote Chilcot at me.

Of course I've seen the Chilcot results. I prefer to believe what it says, both exonerating and condemning Blair, rather than skewed interpretations to suit an agenda.

And that my friends, is as May-ish as it gets. You said it all and said literally nothing.

I disliked Tony Blair as much as anything else because he continued many Tory policies under the guise of Labour and in so doing helped to push this country's 'centre' to the right and made real left policies apparently untenable. Despite their common use on the continent.

There was money rolling around, but much of it was public money going into private hands via such routes as regional development funds and the enforced privatization of services. In his time council and local service funding was changed and split up into a remarkably inefficient series of 'pots of money' that needed applying for, and so encouraged a 'divide and conquer' approach to public services. Those that could play the system benefitted, those that could not lost out. Those that could play the system were often those that had personal ties to the higher tiers. The money thereby supplied often went on useless vanity projects of those same personalities rather than on the actual needs of the people. He also brought in the 'targeting' culture, and continued the undermining of professional status and knowledge started by Thatcher.

The Northern Ireland peace process and the setting up of Sure Start were genuine achievements of Labour. I admit Blair and his years look bloody good compared to the current Tories, but he started many of the policies and practices that have led us to this current broken system.

I don't doubt that the Tories would have gone to war.

The question, for me, isn't 'does that one bad thing I did negate all the good things?' It's a fair question: had Blair's years been wonderful and then just that little issue of the war been the boil on the backside of 1997-2007 that would be one thing.

Very reductively however, there is a pattern of Blair's government we could sum up with It Seemed A Good Idea At The Time But.

It seemed a good idea to open the doors to Eastern Europe: we get cheap labour, they get to work out of poverty, what's not to like?

It led to dense population in some areas which also had a knock on effect on public services and also on people's tolerance and global outlook. It led to house prices rocketing out of control. It led to a split down the middle between those who benefited from the mass migration and those who did not. And one side does not listen to the other.

It seemed a great idea to encourage more young people, especially those from working class backgrounds, to go to university.

It led to the degree being devalued, the scrapping of the grant, university fees and debt. The degree is now so inflated as to be practically meaningless in some subjects and from some HE placements.

It seemed a good idea to introduce tax credits. Encourage people to work, get some help towards childcare and related costs - better than them not working at all and so what's not to like?

In reality, it was really state control and redistribution of money. Others have I know already made this point: the taxpayer is subsidising businesses. That's all fine and good in boom years but then things crash and wages aren't going up but the government can't afford to keep subsidising businesses through tax credits.

In addition, the TCs actually take away incentive and to an extent responsibility - people are often caught between the devil and the deep blue sea of wanting more hours and to up their income but being unable to. There's also growing resentment (although it has simmered down) between the benefit claimants and the non benefit claimants. The system became ever more bloated and more complex, and cuts were made when individuals were desperately reliant on them and now we have UC which people seem worried about.

It seemed a good idea to fling money at things with outwardly noble sentiments such as Connexions, supported living, EMA, Sure Start. In practice (I'm sure some will tell me I'm wrong) a lot of money was spent without very much to show at the end of it. I worked in supported living in the Blair years. Ha. Kids would trash their rooms and WE were sent on courses on how to deal with 'real poverty.'

Anyway I've wittered enough :) The point is I think the Blair years follow a pattern and he war, whether it was originally well intentioned or not, is a part of that.

I disliked Tony Blair as much as anything else because he continued many Tory policies under the guise of Labour and in so doing helped to push this country's 'centre' to the right and made real left policies apparently untenable. Despite their common use on the continent.

^this.
I have been banned on twitter by a very seasoned Labour MP because I asked this. And that was before I said anything about the wars.

Valentine2 I am not impressed with you at all and I do not appreciate your mockery. Enough.

Exactly what part of Chilcot do you want to discuss? The finding that, although all peaceful options had not been exhausted, war was inevitable within months? The finding that Blair was right to believe intelligence reports presented to him?

Tony Blair inherited a country which was financially sound and did very little to secure this so when bust came as it inevitably does we were f*ed, with bank runs -remember the Northern Rock debacle and the massive financial bail outs and years of austerity.
I remember they spent money like it was going out of fashion and increased welfare so couples on £70,000 were entitled to tax credits. His government manipulated the education system to make it look like standards were improving- remember the yearly increases in GCSE and A level results. The loss of a free higher education system and the burdening of young people with a massive debt in their early twenties, often for worthless degrees.
They were disingenuous about the number of immigrants who would come to the UK after the ascension of the Eastern European countries - 10x the estimated numbers came changing the demographics of some communities within a few years and denying the effects of this extra pressure on public services
The Iraq war to be part of his legacy to match that of Thatcher (Falklands) and Churchill (WW2) . T
When I watched his speech in reply to the conclusion of the Chilcott enquiry I thought you had fooled us for years with this act and you're still trying it on. The hubris of the man is astounding

although all peaceful options had not been exhausted, war was inevitable within months?
I was hoping you write this.
Can you please translate it while standing under direct attack in one of these attacked countries?
You choose which side, soldiers of UK or civilians of Afghanistan and Iraq.
Sorry. For our generation, things don't work that way anymore. If you go on to kill and maim and displace millions, you exhaust ALL corners and do your best to make sure it's not hasty.
Can you reverse the situation a bit? Place yourself in UK, consider Saddam was using questionable info to launch a war on Uk and had a chance to not do it but still went ahead. And that's without proof that UK was the planning centre for something like 9/11 on Iraq soil.
Now tell me what you think.

And I should have written two other points:

1. Chilcot inquiry has left some very big holes that need further inquiries if we are a respectable and decent nation that is but hey ho NATO bombed into oblivion 250 civilians in collateral damage yesterday so leave that.
2. I wish I could say it otherwise but I honestly don't care what you think of me as a person. I care for you as a fellow human being and respect that. But not what you think of me.