To not understand the Tony Blair hatred thing

[smashedinductionhob]

I remember Tony Blair being very popular in his day and recall him doing reasonably good things.

I do remember very clearly the run up to the Iraq war and saying to my husband that I did not agree with it as there was no actual plan and the US public seemed to think Saddam Hussain was connected to 9/11 which he wasn't.

I remember passionate supporters of ethnic minorities in Iraq supporting him and only a few brave clever people like Obama calling it as a mistake.

I failed to demonstrate. The dossier was identified in Parliament (by a small minority) as dodgy before the war started but most of us went along with it.

It was clear to me at the time that the PM was supporting the US as a matter of principle (a lousy principle but fairly obvious).

How did we get from there to TB as hate figure? Is he just a scapegoat?

Have read all the replies. I was never a Labour Party member so can't identify with the sense of betrayal.

Why did we really go to war in Iraq? I mean we know why the uk did, but why did Bush?

I have already provided stats for the Iraqi death rates under Hussein and after the war. Conservative estimate 1.2 million killed by Hussein. Entire villages destroyed by WMDs. What do you think Iraqi people would have wanted?

I have already provided stats for the Iraqi death rates under Hussein and after the war. Conservative estimate 1.2 million killed by Hussein. Entire villages destroyed by WMDs. What do you think Iraqi people would have wanted?
are you for the real?
Why didn't we ask them what they wanted before we installed Saddam there? It's good, isn't it? First place a dictator to kill people. Once they have become maimed enough to look help-worthy, go on and free them. We don't own colonies anymore but we have the leftover mentality and its apologists for sure.
And you haven't answered whether you would have wanted Saddam to attack UK to free you or not.

Have to respond to turnina on this point:

"They were disingenuous about the number of immigrants who would come to the UK after the ascension of the Eastern European countries - 10x the estimated numbers came changing the demographics of some communities within a few years and denying the effects of this extra pressure on public services"

This was a case of bad advice, arguably can be laid at blairs door but it was a mistake rather than a lie. A number of analysts in govt (economists & statisticians most likely) crunched some numbers to provide Blair with advice re the estimated number of immigrants that would come from accession states to the U.K. They made a caveat, but it was a bit too hidden, that these numbers assumed that no other EU countries would place limits on immigration from accession countries (the rules allowed for limits to be placed for 10 years). In the end only the UK and Sweden placed no limits, hence numbers were much higher than envisaged

The man is a complete cunt as the many reasons above who destroyed the polit

You really don't understand?' He was more right-wing than any Tory and all about self aggrandisement. A complete wanker.

If the situation were reversed, damn right I would have wanted other countries to help. As the Iraqi people did.

I might ask are you for real? No one 'placed' Hussein. I suggest that you actually look up Hussein's route to power.

Why did Bush go to war in Iraq? That's a very good question. Obviously he had to do something, and being another weak character had to be seen to be doing something over the top, in a country that looks to me rather over the top and gung-ho.

If I remember correctly, there were links suggested at the time between Al Qaeda and the Saudi royal family, and links between the Saudi royal family and the Bush family. Basically he needed a scapegoat, Iraq was being annoying at the time and needed a put-down for the sake of oil... and so it snow-balled.

Sorry. Poxy phoned posted to soon. I will continue. ...
Destroyed the political party I have felt represented my family and my self all our lives.
He is in my local venicula a fucking back stabbin I'm alright Jack wanker.

As for your stats, the question here is that those stats are the same as he was our dictator, just as General Zia was backed by us wholehearted when we needed Taliban Afghanistan so we installed him in Pakistan and used their northern areas to breed the "jihadis" of that time who were incidentally thousands of young men from poor families of Pakistan and Afghanistan on the payroll of mulllahs on our pay roll and then attacked Afghanistan valiantly to help them get rid of the said jihadis. You are asking all the wrong questions.
I have no idea how authentic your stats are as I haven't saved any in my folders anywhere though now I will work on it.

Tony Blair was annihilated by the late great Christopher Hitchens in a debate about whether Religion should exist or not. Christopher gave an eloquent, intelligent, multi-layered argument for the reasons against religion. Blair just said over and over again that he thought religion is the right thing to do. He also said he thought invading Iraq was the right thing to do. Fuck off Blair
Nobody else did. Fuck off.

Middle East Peace Envoy??? LoOK WHAT YOU DID!! Seriously fuck the fuck off.

OP HTH.

Yes his government squandered millions.

Frum, he deeply regretted the Freedom of Information Act and said it was the stupidist thing he ever did as PM.

Valentine2 If what you are saying is the kind of thing you learn on social media, then all I can say is god help us all. I have also provided a source for the numbers - I assume you did not notice that. Based on your woeful lack of understanding of the situation in Iraq, I place little faith in the accuracy of your wonderful folders.

prettyhorse
I haven't got the one tonight to post here the history of his rise to power but just to say something, the weapons you mentioned that he used on his people? Do you know who sold them to him thr he used so blatantly time and again?
As for you saying you would have wanted them to intervene, I can only laugh because it only highlights how people taking Blair's side and the wanker himself don't understand the complexity of the argument and the things at stake. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Do you have EVEN ONE PROOF that Iraqis and Afghanis pleaded western nations to come and save them?
I think one thing would have helped massively though: stopping the sell of the weapons to Saddam and to Pakistan for Jihad against Russia.
But that's thousands of jobs here, isn't it?

I think I will stop posting now.
Too late and I have no idea what else to say.

prettyhorse
But that's a very idiotic thing to say that I didn't notice? I have already saved it to compare o whatever I get later on.
I was merely challenging it because I hadn't looked at it and hadn't compared it with any other source.
And that's the folly of your argument: you guys laugh at social media as if it's a bad thing. Might I point out that Mumsnet is part of it? And I have just managed to source one piece of stats through that?

Slow weekend at the Tony Blair Institute, eh OP?

I am with Armpitz and eddiemairswife.

I agree it seems slightly out of proportion how hated he is now. I think it might have something to do with how he speaks/comes across - he is quite mannered and patronising. This obviously worked for him at one time, as leader of a booming country, but now with all the baggage of the Iraq war it really works against him and makes him seem extraordinarily twattish.

I was listening to his Desert Island Discs from the 90s, and he came across terribly, so artificial, defensive and politician-y. John Major on the other hand seemed so much more genuine, normal and sincere in his. And I'm a left winger!

I never supported the war - for the reasons I said earlier. We were the aggressors - no way was what we did going to help the people of Iraq - in fact if that was the real aim they would have had a better plan - or any indeed a plan at all - for the future...
As for parliament supporting it etc - they were misled - as were the people in this country.
From the Chilcot report
The judgments about the severity of the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction – WMDs – were presented with a certainty that was not justified.

The report also bitterly criticised the way in which Blair made the case for Britain to go to war. It said the notorious dossier presented in September 2002 by Blair to the House of Commons did not support his claim that Iraq had a growing programme of chemical and biological weapons.

Blair KNEW that report was flawed - knew there was uncertainty but presented it as fact. And the fact that he said he didn't want to upset the US - damage our relationship - is also damning.

I remember having a conversation with someone who supported the war because they thought there must be more evidence - stronger evidence - and a greater threat than what we could be told about...
As it was the truth was we had less evidence than we were told about...
I don't know if the Tories would have taken us into that war or not ...Blair did seem to desperately want to go down that path for whatever reason -so maybe they would/maybe they wouldn't - we can't know.
Blair did tell Bush “I will be with you, whatever.”
So Blair did...for whatever reason - and he knew the evidence was incredibly weak and that there wasn't an imminent threat.

Chilcot said: “We have concluded that the UK chose to join the invasion of Iraq before the peaceful options for disarmament had been exhausted. Military action at that time was not a last resort.”

And that to me makes him a war criminal.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_and_the_Iraq_War

On September 16, 2004 Secretary-General of the United Nations Kofi Annan, speaking on the invasion, said, "I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN Charter. From our point of view, from the charter point of view, it was illegal."

Hans Blix was the UN weapons inspector
Blix has complained that, to this day, the United States and Britain have not presented him with the evidence which they claim to possess regarding Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction.

Colin Powell made a presentation to the UN about the WMD - which he later retracted
I looked at the four [sources] that [the CIA] gave me for [the mobile bio-labs], and they stood behind them, ... Now it appears not to be the case that it was that solid. At the time I was preparing the presentation, it was presented to me as being solid. April 3, 2004

Seahorses the people of Iraq may have been grateful of help during the 90s uprisings - I am not sure many of them were grateful at the time of the invasion - or even now...
Sadam was supported by the US against Iran - it isn't a secret - they gave Sadam the means to make WMD - they said he hadn't accounted for all the weapons he had the resources to make ...
The first reply here makes the point I think Valentine is trying to make
www.quora.com/Is-Iraq-a-better-place-or-worse-to-live-since-the-fall-of-Saddam-Hussein
This is a broader pov
www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/02/iraq-miss-saddam-hussein-rule.html
and this
www.middleeastmonitor.com/20150112-iraq-is-worse-than-ever-before-so-what-was-the-invasion-and-war-all-for/

The US also supported the Taliban in Afghanistan against the Russians - funded Bin Laden.

The biggest lessons from this has to be we shouldn't interfere in other countries...we can support them if they want us to after a revolution - to protect civilians - but with extreme caution..
(If we had backed the rebels in Syria against Assad - we would have been supporting ISIS and a few other unsavoury groups....)

I will never forgive him for what happened to David Kelly (weapons expert used by the Govt during and after the Iraq war). Blair no doubt authorised a leak of Kelly's identity. Kelly was put under such immense pressure, and even now I don't believe he committed suicide, nor does the medical profession, which can only point to murder.

Yep, I agree...so why is the file re:- DR.David Kelly's death being "claissified" until 2073?, is it to protect bliar? or "alledagedly" to protect Dr. Kelly's family?. Two days before "war" was too much of a coincidence

IIRC wasn't the the whole premise about "WMDs & 45 mins" based on

Yeah, so bliar should be sent to the hague to answer to the charge of war crimes & alledagely the "murder" of Dr. David Kelly!.

Dr. David kelly

"IIRC wasn't the the whole premise about "WMDs & 45 mins" based on"

I forgot to add "a Student's essay" sorry about that.

The Good Friday Agreement.

Seahorses articulates my thoughts on this. Saddam Hussein was a brutal merciless dictator responsible for thousands if not millions of deaths. The atrocities he was responsible for were truly despicable.

Not 100% fan of TB , the God thing worried me too. He does seem very ego centric / narcissistic - but then many in positions of such power do.

But I certainly don't buy the right wing press 'war criminal' line.

Steam I remember watching the Foreign Affairs committee grilling him. The poor man looked terrified. He' was a proud man just doing his job and then dragged into the war in the most awful way possible. He was a scapegoat no doubt about that. I wonder if Blair and Campbell can sleep at night, they took a valid report from a weapons expert, then 'sexed it up' (making at least 15 changes apparently) and then outed Kelly and tried to blame him.

Whether he was murdered or it was suicide the poor man was hounded to his death.

John Major genuine and sincere. As he spouts family values and shagged the egg woman Edwina Curry.