To not understand the Tony Blair hatred thing

[smashedinductionhob]

I remember Tony Blair being very popular in his day and recall him doing reasonably good things.

I do remember very clearly the run up to the Iraq war and saying to my husband that I did not agree with it as there was no actual plan and the US public seemed to think Saddam Hussain was connected to 9/11 which he wasn't.

I remember passionate supporters of ethnic minorities in Iraq supporting him and only a few brave clever people like Obama calling it as a mistake.

I failed to demonstrate. The dossier was identified in Parliament (by a small minority) as dodgy before the war started but most of us went along with it.

It was clear to me at the time that the PM was supporting the US as a matter of principle (a lousy principle but fairly obvious).

How did we get from there to TB as hate figure? Is he just a scapegoat?

In regards to Iraq Blair acted as most Labour and every Tory leader would have. So why the special hate?

He did things other leaders would not have Kosovo, Sierra Leone.

Domestically he did not help the left. But he was not a Tory. So why the special hate?

They bought, rented and bought more.

Crumbs fairly easy to see how that isn't exactly aligned with core values of the Labour movement.

Rentier empire building wasn't really what Wat Tyler, the Tolpuddle martyrs, diggers, levellers or Keir Hardy had in mind during the centuries long struggle for the emancipation of the working and toiling classes.

And, as Unlucky says, the property portfolio does bring into question whether he was governing the country with an eye on the good of the country, especially Labour voters, or an eye with on his elevation to the position of modern rentier feudalist/well paid speechmaker to the elite.

There is a difference between bestowing charity on others and working to ensure dignity and security for others. Noblesse oblige is not really the right tone for the Labour movement.

mousse I don't think that is true re the war - he seemed to go out of his way to get us into that and the whole dodgy dossier - was symptomatic of nu-labour spin...and the not lying but not telling the truth aspect....just so fake and sneaky.
And the legality was/is in doubt - and the legal advice to cabinet was fudged - lots of our allies were against it...
I am not sure in another government - with another way of running things it could have happened
But if it was another Pm I would have intense hatred for them too...
(Even without Iraq as I said I didn't like TB - but I wouldn't have hated him as much as I do)

The issues were not favourable contracts to private sector

crumbs I would very much disagree with you. The contracts given out were ridiculous - the private centres got a better tariff and could cherry pick easy patients (excluding e.g. those who were obese, diabetic, mental health issues) leaving the NHS Trusts with averagely more complex patients for the same tariff. And the private contractors had no obligation to teach and they were paid whether or not they did the work, which was a significant issue as many were of dubious quality and so local GPs were reluctant to refer.

Plus he was a big fan of PFI which is currently bankrupting many trusts

completely agree with you that the HSCB was a shambles designed to shift the blame for reduced funding onto GPs, but just because the conservatives are mis-managing the NHS doesn't mean that TB was its saviour. He was a disaster for the NHS.

He was more right-wing than any Tory

Erm, I really don't think so.

Although he was to the right of the Libdems. But right-wing than the likes of the mad Hard Brexiteers? Nope.

And even if the NI peace is fragile, he was instrumental in it, although to be fair I could have seen Cameron being involved in it too, but then how many more years would we have had to wait for a peace there?

My main complaint against Blair is Iraq - but it's not the only one.

I can't forgive him for all the policy flip-flops - I know politicians do this all the time (in spite of claims by her apologists, Thatcher was a master of it) but he seemed to be trying to represent himself as some better "third way" when he turned out to be the same sort of nasty self-serving swine as Thatcher.

He stood in 1983 on a platform of leaving the EEC (as it was then) - but now he is telling us how wrong it is.

He bitterly opposed ID cards when they were a Tory policy, then adopted them as soon as he got into power.

Just two examples from many - he reminds me of that Grouch Marx quote "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others"

How can you trust people like that?

He is a liar, and he took advantage. But I think many politicians do.
He doesn't stand out to me as the devil incarnate.

Everyone tries to represent themselves well, and keep their selfishness hidden. Lots of politicians lie to get their own way - eg The NHS Brexit bus etc.

He could not have led us into war singlehandedly, the party had to agree (because we're not in North Korea). He's egotistical and has a saviour complex, but so do many politicians - left and right both.

A lot of Labour's actions at the time were despicable, but I don't think it's all on himalone.

wasonthelist, Theresa May gave us a great example of flip-flopping on Brexit. Many politicians do this, often.

He said to the people 'if you had seen what I had (WMD) you would understand why we have to go to war'or words to that effect. I believed him.

He's a liar, that's what I hate him. Good speech about Brexit though, I'll give him that.

Kanye - I think that is covered in the Chilcot report.
He was so evangelical that he carried others along with him ...so even though he knew what he was saying wasn't certain he made it seem like it was....and yes the rest of the cabinet take some blame - only Robin Cook resigned (read his speech - and he had been in the cabinet meetings) but the buck stopped with Blair - he wanted it, pushed it. He was the one sucking up to Bush ....and Bush really wanted the war - just because he had to be seen as doing something after 9/11...

wasonthelist, Theresa May gave us a great example of flip-flopping on Brexit. Many politicians do this, often.

Agreed - I don't think she tries to pretend otherwise though - and Blair didn't have a referendum.

I didn't vote for the current government btw so I am not favouring Theresa May from blind party dogma.

I am (and was) more angry with Blair because he and the party at the time set themselves up to be better. There was going to be a new politics, free from personal attacks in the house etc and with a restoration of decency. After years of Tories like Cecil Parkinson, Aitken, Archer et al, this seemed appealing, and I bought into it.

I was fooled - in many ways the Blairites were worse because of the pretence. At least Tories like Alan Clarke never pretended to care about us, even though I detested them and didn't vote for them.

Good speech about Brexit though, I'll give him that

I assume you mean this one, Tony Blair 1983 -

"We'll negotiate withdrawal from the EEC, which has drained our natural resources and destroyed jobs."

I do think it is a little strange the vitriol he gets. As someone pointed out, I think one of his biggest crimes was to get elected three times, and therefore have to confront many on the left with the reality of voting Labour.

I find the amount of money he has made rather distasteful, and that has tarnished his reputation in my eyes. On Iraq, I think he made a huge mistake, but one which I genuinely believe was made through a desire to make life better for people in Iraq. He was faced with an incredibly tough decision, as most issues in foreign policy tend to be. Remain aloof and allow tyrants and despots to rule, send troops in, and you're a bloodthirsty murderer.

All this forgets the good he did for things like early education, as well as in Kosovo.

So, in summary, I understand why people might think he was a bad PM, made a mistake on Iraq, but the hatred ... no, I don't understand it at all.

If I thought Iraq was an honest mistake I'd be more forgiving, but I don't. He's a bright lad, he knew exactly what he was doing , and it was never about making things better for anyone in Iraq.

BTW it is interesting that with all his new-found internationalist credentials, Blair didn't think the doubts of the UN or our partners in the EU about his adventure in Iraq were more important than sucking up to George Bush.

Wasonthelist - how do you know it was never about making things better for anyone in Iraq? How do you know he didn't think about the doubts of some of our partners in the EU?

It seems as if you're assuming things, that firstly are about his internal mental state, and secondly, highly unlikely

Wasonthelist - how do you know it was never about making things better for anyone in Iraq? How do you know he didn't think about the doubts of some of our partners in the EU?

Well the same reason you "know" he did I guess. In my opinion (which I thought didn't really need clarifying) he didn't concern himself too much with either issue - but of course I can't know what was in his mind any more than you can.

But my supposition, dare I say it, is a bit more likely than yours, is it not?

I can't possibly know what was going on his head, any more than you can. However, given that he had previously had intervened in Kosovo to avert a genocide, is a highly educated man who had thought a lot about foreign affairs prior to the Iraq War (take the famous 1999 speech he gave in Chicago), that he had weighed up the pros and cons, and that he wasn't some bloodthirsty war criminal, but someone who had a very tough call to make, and he made the wrong decision.

But my supposition, dare I say it, is a bit more likely than yours, is it not?

No. I don't quarrel that Blair is a "is a highly educated man who had thought a lot about foreign affairs" but the Kosovo intervention was totally totally different. It wasn't an illegal war with no UN sanction and very little support outside the White House and Westminster (though I concede it had a degree of cross-party support there). Kosovo was UN-backed and NATO led.

I think Blair's decision was a political, not a humanitarian one in relation to Iraq. I think he was chasing his own flagging popularity and judging that we could be a willing ally to the USA . You make Kosovo sound like a personal mission - in fact Iraq was much more of a personal crusade for Blair. Robin Cook was right.

I won't dispute with you that Robin Cook was right and Blair was wrong

Which is why Robin Cook had to die.

What AuroraofDora said. Millions dead on the flimsiest of evidence.

Plus I never liked that smarmy git smile of his

So Robin Cook was murdered? My first ever

He was dead wrong on Iraq and I don't think his reputation will ever recover from that.

On most other things he was head and shoulders above any other PM of the last 40 years. From hugely increased NHS spending to the Good Friday Agreement to reducing greenhouse gases, to the FOI Act, to the greatest reduction in pensioner poverty of all time- I could go on and on. Obviously it wasn't all perfect (PFI etc) but he is the only PM in my lifetime who had an achievable vision of a fairer and more equal society.

LMAO when I saw the title of this thread