DD thinks I'm v v v U. DH thinks I'm a bit U. I'm interested in your views

[chastenedButStillSmiling]

DD is 15, and I start her bedtime process at 9 (to be clear, her bedtime process is private and involves only her - we don't bath her any more! But 9 is when I tell her it's bedtime). It takes her about 3/4 hour to be in the bathroom at night (5 mins in the mornings!), so the time she goes to bed is regularly about 9:45 pm.

She has sporting activities on both weekend days, which require her to be at the site, breakfasted and in kit at 7:45 (Saturday am) and 9:00 (Sunday am). She LOVES these activities.

But because she has to be there so early, I keep her w/end bedtime similar to her weekday one.

I should also say, DH (bless him!) doesn't drive, so I have to facilitate all these activities. (don't turn on DH... he's an amazing dad in a gazillion ways. He just hasn't got a driving licence. But he does LOADS, including most of the cooking for her, and he makes up the lack of his driving to me where he can)

DD thinks it's outrageous I tell her to go to bed so early during the week and she's beyond furious I also do it at weekends.

But she gets really, really tired. And she leads a very physical life. She does LOTS of sport.

On the other hand, I also facilitate everything for her... I take her and collect her to EVERYTHING and usually stay to watch and cheer her on (DH often comes along to do this too). And I facilitate her social life massively (partly because she's an only child, so I don't have to split my time). So a typical conversation on a Saturday day might be
Her I'm going into town but don't know whether to cycle or take the bus
Me why don't you cycle and if you need a lift home [because it's dark and you've got not lights/would be cycling alone], call me and I'll put your bike in the back of the car

I'm also very generous about lifts for her friends. She has a new-ish set of friends, so it's different to when they were all at primary and all the mums stood together on the playground. Back then, the kids would come out saying things like "we can join guides!" or "here's a leaflet about a hockey club, and I really want to do it" and all the mums would have a quick conflab, and lift-shares would be organised in the twinkling of an eye and it was always pretty fair.
Now she's got a new set of friends, who don't all live as locally and I don't know the parents (very well). Plus in her group of around 6, 2 of them are single mums due to bereavement of their DH's (which seems like a high statistic to me, but is the actual fact) or have other siblings which means that they can't leave them home alone.
So I do a LOT of driving her 'crew' home after parties/events during holidays and stuff and it's late. 10, 11, after midnight. And I'm generous about welcoming children who need a lift and dropping them at their doors. DD appreciates these moments when they happen, but doesn't retain that gratitude or bank it for later!

When she's not got to get up, I don't send her to bed. And when she can, she'll sleep for 12 hours plus (for day after day). I understand that teenagers do need to sleep, so when I'm sending her to bed, I'm not the bitch she thinks I am... I'm just trying to facilitate the rest I know think she needs.

She thinks I'm V U to tell her to go to bed. And not respecting her age and stage.
My DH kind-of agrees with her. And points out to me that other parents don't send their kids to bed. I point out that (a) if I don't tell her to go, she never makes the adult decision that "oh, I'm tired... I should go to bed now" or "I need an early night" and (b) other kids don't have to be up as early as her on weekends. So they have opportunities to catch up on their sleep that my DD doesn't have except in school holidays.

I think she needs the sleep. And I think I demonstrate over and over again that I help her do the things she wants to do.

The backstory (so as not to dripfeed) is that DD was an early riser from birth. Once she slept through, she woke up early. Really bloody early. (we read books, we tried methods.... nothing trained her out of it) but she slept the MOMENT her head hit that pillow. And it used to get to a particular point in the evenings, and you'd just see the tiredness sweeping over her... she'd go white, get black shadows under her eyes, be all weepy and not able to cope. Her waking gradually got later and later over the years (from regularly at 4 am to us being pleased she didn't wake until 5 and then didn't wake until nearly six [that phase lasted a good couple of years] and finally she learned to sleep in til around 7). At 10 she finally learned the art of sleeping in.... I think she learned to drop off again, rather than waking up and being all "I IS AWAAAAAKE". So to an extent, I carry that history with me.

So, should I back off? And let her choose her bedtime? She's on her GCSE course, so she needs to be alert in school.

but I will take your guidance.

Thanks for listening, and sorry it's long.

I think the OP has been very reasonable with her responses, particularly when she's been told to 'back the fuck off' and that she's 'strange' etc. She's been pretty nice considering all the hysteria!

Gosh, I feel for the OP.

Dh and I are fairly relaxed as parents but we are shit hot about bedtimes. Jeez, most nights I'm in bed by ten, why shouldn't a growing teenager who is doing GCSEs and a raft of sporting activities need as much sleep? If they have to be up at 7, then they need to be asleep by 10/11. And all you that have 'self regulating' kids, well aren't you the lucky ones! If my 11 & 13 year olds were left to their own devices (literally and metaphorically) until they wanted I swear they would be up until gone midnight, every night. They have friends who are clearly allowed to 'self-regulate' and trust me, they are up until 1.30am some nights; I know this because I've seen the notifications are pinging up on their phones until then. One girl in dd1's class is constantly calling in sick because she keeps missing the bus due to sleeping in.

Lots of sleep is essential and I can't think of a time it is needed more than the teenage years.

I think you've taken the responses very well OP. I have a lovely friend who was left to get on with it as a teen and swore she wouldn't do the same to her DC. She is very involved in all aspects of their lives and has struggled with the transition into adulthood. She was quite pissed off when a mutual friend said after GCSE's that she was lucky with her DD as she got good grades. She said to me it was because her DD had worked hard not luck and other woman's DD had been going on about how studying was for losers, so a fair point.

The other day my DD went off to an interview an hour away in the bus, the girls are 18 now. Friend said to me I am lucky that DD did that as no way would her DD have the confidence to do that. I bit my tongue as they are having a hard time but was thinking it wasn't luck, it was us gently encouraging our slightly anxious DD to be independent over the last few years. I found it interesting she couldn't see what you need to put in as a parent to foster independence and how important it is, despite the fact we have had conversations about it over the years and attribute it to luck.

Now is a great time to let your DD take over control of her life more. You've got 3 years until she might go off to university and you've got learning to drive in the mix before that. I think the fact you've said you can be quite controlling should tell you something . You said about something being her mistake to make. That is such a key point, she needs to make mistakes and learn from them. Good luck , not easy the teenage years as there is a big shift in your role and it takes a bit of getting used to.

OP your DD is now at an age where she needs to learn to manage her own schedule and sleep. Otherwise she won't learn at all. I would start letting her decide when she needs to go to sleep. Then if she's tired she'll learn a valuable lesson. Loosen the apron strings a little and give her a bit more credit, as an intelligent girl with lots of activities going on then I'm sure she will manage just fine.

I suspect the OP has worked out that a lot of Mumsnetters are weirdos who are always spoiling for a fight ;)

Teenagers aren't alway good at making sensible decisions - even sensible mature teens. My DD15 has to be out of the house on weekdays at 6.30am (gets up at 5.45am) so I do remind her of the time in the evening sometimes if it's getting late. She has plenty of control over her life, but if she lacks sleep she's not the only one who suffers. She can burn the candle at both ends when she's got her own place.

Yanbu and Yabu. At 15 the unspoken rule was that I had to be in my room by 9:30. Lots of children especially teenagers don't get enough sleep which affects their work at school etc but I would leave her to it at the weekend. If she misses her activities that's her problem.

They have friends who are clearly allowed to 'self-regulate' and trust me, they are up until 1.30am some nights; I know this because I've seen the notifications are pinging up on their phones until then. One girl in dd1's class is constantly calling in sick because she keeps missing the bus due to sleeping in.

This sounds like DS14's class. And yes, he too would be up playing computer games until midnight if left to his own devices. Needless to say he is not.

I feel for the OP (while agreeing with the general thrust of most of the responses). The background stuff about the dd's toddler-hood and her work in schools explains why Sleep is a Thing.

I think you need to let dd look after herself a bit. And I think you should also give her the opportunity to "budget" limited resources, as well all do.

She doesn't need 45 minutes to get washed and ready for bed every single night. she basically may as well take it, as leisure time, as you have stopped her other leisure at 9. So what if she prefers to read, phone friends, play music etc? She might do these till 9.45 and still be in bed at 10. She doesn't have the choice to experiment.

All the lifts: what if you made her choose? What if you, in the nicest possible way, lived your own life a bit more and were available a bit less: and offered her a certain amount of support with these things this - even offered her more to "buy" with household chores perhaps? She might take you for granted less.

The point I am getting at is that most of us work with limits and priorities all the time. Your dd doesn't. She has EVERYTHING she needs, but never gets the chance to make any CHOICES, or decisions about priorities. Choosing sleep over some other activity is one of many choices she should learn to make case by case, each one on its own merits.

she's going to go mad at university otherwise.

My dd is 13 and goes to bed at 8pm. Like yours, she does a lot of sports and seems to need a lot of sleep.

However, this is when she thinks she needs to go to bed, not when we think she needs to go.

When she was 13, we were saying to her 'don't you think you should stay up later now????' But she was having none of it!

She knows her new high school friends stay up much later and when she told me that she didn't know what to say when they were talking about what time they all went to bed, I told her to make something up.

It's really hard to remember my 15 year old self, but I do know I had a shop job that was 6 til 10 on 3 evening a week, which I used to walk home from. I think you probably need to let go a bit. Perhaps strike a deal that during her exams she needs to be an adult and prioritise sleep but give her more freedom until then.

I have to send my DD off to bed by a certain time or she would up be on her phone half the night. She is a naturally early riser and also does a lot of activities in the week and at weekends so needs a decent sleep. While I agree at 15 the OP needs to back off, having a later set bedtime and deadline for screens off is not necessarily a bad thing during school time. In fact our school has specifically requested that parents try to enforce this as they are seeing so many kids half asleep in class having been up half the night on Xbox or Snapchat.

I'm late to this. I think your rationale is NU but your actions are, iyswim. You need, at least, to do the experiment with giving her more autonomy. Pick a non-sensitive time at sport/school and give her a week's free(ish) rein. If she gets tired and her work/sport performance suffers, point it out calmly and without 'I told you so'-ing. Then sit down and renegotiate.

You do (and I mean this in the nicest possible way, honestly) sound rather an exhausting sort of mother to have You revolve around her to quite a consuming extent - and again, I get your rationale completely - and I do think you have certain expectations of how your dd should be behaving in return, even if you don't articulate them to her. I think backing off a bit in general would help. I've fallen into a bit of a trap with my eldest (and he's younger than yours, not quite 12) of going to great lengths to facilitate left-till-the-last-minute homework projects and forgotten important bits of paper etc. and he's beginning to expect it. And there are natural limits to how much I can run around after him because he has 2 younger siblings, one a toddler, but I still did it. I feel we've reached the point where he needs to be a bit more responsible for his own shit. And I do wonder whether for you, perhaps a bit less presence in your dd's life - of course making sure she gets home safely from places and always being available in important cases and emergencies, but perhaps not staying to cheer her on every fixture, for example - might be a good thing for both you and her. She'll still feel supported and loved and you'll perhaps not qutie store up so many expectations. There's almost a sense of 'I do all this for her, she has to agree with me on this' about your OP, and that way unhealthiness lies - trust me, I've been there with my mother, although hers was a much, much more extreme case of it.

I also think your getting a hard time and are clearly trying your best. I teach children too where they resemble zombies due to lack of sleep and it can be difficult to regulate them. I have two that like a strict routine.... ds12 starts his routine about 8.30 and is in bed for around 9.30 on a school night. My middle one is nearly 16 and loves to talk and mess about until the small hours and I have to get annoyed.

I think maybe trying a more relaxed approach at the weekend and seeing how it goes is the only thing you can do differently. Also you/ she must do very little socially and you don't want a situation where she feels there is no compromise and has to give up sport. A bit of give and take helps.

I think that OP has taken it very well. She is too involved at the moment. Parenthood is all about letting go- gradually. Now is the time to start because in less than 3 yrs she will be an adult and needs to work it all out for herself. You learn by your mistakes. No doubt she will be tired to start with but then she will self regulate.

I quite regularly have to wake up the 16-19 year olds who are supposed be in study classes. (2 a week?)

I inform the parents if they're regularly falling asleep.

My DS is just 11, he goes loads of sports too. He generally goes upstairs at 730/8 as he'll sit with my 8yo so they can watch TV together. His bed time is 930 but we never check really, he usually goes but 945 but we feel he can make the decision that when he's too tired he will go a bit earlier. He takes ages to fall asleep and always has done regardless if bed time routine.

Sometimes he is tired but no more than other kids, his teachers have always said he is focused do not concerns there.

I wouldn't worry about random late nights either, DS1 had a sleepover the other week and went to bed at 530, he still managed football training early that morning plus 2 hours of tennis. Went to sleep but 10pm the following night but was fine after.

As a teen I regularly went out till 1am on a Thursday night and my mum collected me and my friends. Only reason we couldn't stay later was because of school/mum working.

Kids are resilient, please chill out a bit.

Op if you are so passionate about the benefit of sleep why are you posting on the internet at 0040, when your post says you take Dd to her sport on Saturday at 0745?

On this basis alone, I think YABU and hypocritical. If you valued sleep you wouldn't still be on your internet you would be in bed and asleep.

Bloomin heck.

Just woke up to this.

Not read the whole thread but I , too, send my 15 yo to bed (at 9.45). he has no devices at all in his room. If he chooses to read or something for an hour or so, that's up to him. He moans a it but gets up willingly at 7 - 7.30 the next day when we all need to be up or about for school / work (he has to leave for school at 8). He can be a grumpy, awkward sod but he is never a tired, grumpy, awkward sod!

15 absolutely (legally) is a child.

I am a teacher and am fed up - soooo fed up- of teaching classrooms full of sleep deprived teenagers who go to bed when they choose. It is possible my DS is the only child in his class who has had as much sleep as scientists say he should.

It is a massive problem and causes disruptive an inattentive behaviour.

While your DD is under your roof , follow your instincts about parenting lovely OP. And golden rule : don't ask Mumsnet.

Sorry when I said I don't check DS1s has gone to bed, we often go up to our room 1030/11 and check on the boys then, he is always asleep by then.

To be fair I get up early with ds. And am ready for bed around 10pm. And if I am not asleep by 10.30 I am knackered. And I am at home during the day so can have a lazy day if necessary.

Dd is 13 in the summer. I send her up at 9pm and she faffs around for half an hour. She can read in her room or watch tv for an hour if she isn't tired. And I suspect faffs around on her phone. But she is generally asleep by 10pm. Up at 6.30 for school monday to Friday but usually sleeps in at a weekend.

Occasionally she stops at my mums and stays up later. Or has sleepovers at friends or they come to us. She is awful without enough sleep. Ratty and over emotional and is usually going to bed at 8pm through choice the next day.

Could you compromise. Free choice at a weekend and 10pm on school nights.

OP I think you sound lovely. ❤️ But I agree with others it's time to let her learn to manage her own sleep. Good luck and please update in a month's time!

At what age do you let them manage their own bedtime, I still tell my 11YO to have a bath go to bed etc

Blimey, some posters seem to be wearing a badge of honour that their kids stay up really late, don't need checking on, are out on school nights socialising, are up gaming to the small hours and are FINE....yet all the teachers are unanimous in how this presents in the classroom....

OP - I don't think you are BU in your viewpoint, I think you're being a really good parent but might need to tackle it in a slightly different way.

Also, some families are just early risers and early go to bedders. A few nights aside, I myself am tucked up at 10 - 10.30. and was at university!

We are all up by 8.30 at the weekend (DH is the latest!). It's the way some families are and it is not 'weird'. Some people are routine driven and often also produce children who are. It's what makes us content!

When teens 'decide' their own bedtimes does that mean they are sometimes going to bed after their own parents? That I do find peculiar!

But I guess so may of them have TVs in their rooms and hang out in their bedrooms(mine watch TV in the kitchen so it's a bit different) that 'going to bed' is a flexible concept these days!

Interesting how many educationalists on this thread are backing the OP!

Op you sound a little overbearing but it is all with the best of intentions for your DD. I'm sure she's a sensible girl- I wouldn't enforce a bedtime- I expect she will probably take herself up between 10-10.30 anyway!!