To wonder why it's so transphobic here?

[user1490186326]

Really what's the big deal if a transwoman uses the women's toilets or changing rooms - they are women after all!

Can you not possibly imagine how hard it must be to be born into the wrong body? Imagine the pain and distress that must cause?

I have a friend who is a transwoman and she is the kindest most gentle soul you could ever meet so hearing her being referred to as a bloke in a dress or that she has a perverted fetish is just heartbreaking.

Can't we just show a little bit of empathy for these people who have been through so much pain already?

There are TinfoilHat.

I also remember the outrage when I was lecturing from some activists at 'encouragement' for men to get into primary teaching.

MaisyPops

biological men wanting all the perks of male privilege

Surely they're perks of being female, if they want access to 'female spaces'? I can't think of any (gentlemens clubs?) male only spaces so these single sex/gender spaces must be a perk of being a woman? Alternatively, you're saying that a perk of being a man is expecting access to anywhere they want, but that would be ridiculous.

You don't tend to read about female to male transmen demanding rights to male spaces.

Honestly, I never hear anything about "the trans debate" unless I read it on MN or in the Daily Mail. Interestingly, they are two very closely aligned opinions!

There is a thread underway in AIBU about all women having experienced sexual assault. That is one reason why women care about continuing to accurately distinguish male and female, and wanting safer spaces.

It is not transphobia.

I just wish that transactivists would have a bit more empathy for "born women" frankly.............

I agree Bertrand but the transactivist agenda is based on the notion that their feelings are more important than the feelings and reality of others and, for some bizarre reason, they have been successful in getting this warped view into mainstream liberal thought. Examples

-Tanya Byron's response to a request for advice on bullying of a teenage girl by a transgirl (advice - put the transgirl's feelings first)

• Riley in the first video above about in discussing whether it ok for a lesbian to say she doesn't want to have sex with someone with a penis says that "this is centering the feelings of CIS people in a discussion about trans people". So even when women are thinking about prospective partners, they need to be centering trans people and putting transwomen first.

and many other examples. I suppose its the logical extension of identity politics, but it's very weird.

BertrandRussell

On a thread about DV and women's refuges and increasing numbers of (born) male victims, someone said something similar about men.

The response they got was something along the lines of "I'm a feminist and fight for women and don't care about men's issues. They can sort them out for themselves. It isn't my job." Many posters agreed.

Surely the same idea is applicable here?

There's no transphobia on MN. What there is, given that MN posters are mostly women, is a concern for the erosion of our rights and damage to our interests as a result of trans activism. Add to that the appalling medical ethics of current practice when it comes to children and teenagers with gender issues and there's no surprise many MN posters are very concerned.

Those keen to hurl accusations of transphobia might do well to note that both trans posters and parents of gender confused teens have said how helpful regular posters on the Feminist boards are. The people doing the harm to trans interests are the extremists who insist that a penis can be a female organ and likewise absurd claims.

Riley's video reminds me very very much of conversations I had with psychiatric inpatients while nursing. The absolute firm and genuine belief in their delusion is the same. This is where I struggle to understand why on earth the medical profession encourages pandering to delusional thought which some trans people present but it's an absolute no no in treating psychiatric patients (I'm very prepared to be told it's different in nursing now).

gender confused teens

Was that deliberately so condescending and patronising?

Sans

On a thread about DV and women's refuges and increasing numbers of (born) male victims, someone said something similar about men

The response they got was something along the lines of "I'm a feminist and fight for women and don't care about men's issues. They can sort them out for themselves. It isn't my job." Many posters agreed

Surely the same idea is applicable here?

What I understand you to be saying is that the interests/experience/issues of transwomen are not the same as those of women.

If so, I completely agree.

This is why transwomen insisting that feminism and women's groups need to be "centered" on transwomen is so wrong.

@MaisyPops

*Transpeople - no issue at all and they should have all the support they need. Its a long process and there is some hatred out there.

Transactivism- massive problem because rather than promoting solutions to the problem of transphobia they insist on trampling on womens rights by making ridiculous complaints e.g. a FtM transperson isnt a pregant woman, theyre a pregnant man. E.g. being biologically male but identifying female should mean male students can compete in the womens sports category*

YY to all this. There is a big difference between a genuine transperson getting on with their business and the aggressive trans-activism which plays jiggery-pokery with the meaning of language and believes feminism should serve every group apart from biological women - who should sit down and shut up.

What I understand you to be saying is that the interests/experience/issues of transwomen are not the same as those of women.

Yes. We agree. But based on our different opinions on other aspects, our experiences and issues as women are fairly different too. I am me and you are you (or something wittier by Dr Seuss).

It isn't about demanding women's groups are centred on transwomen (unless you read AIBU or the Daily Mail), it's attacks by some feminists and women's groups saying that transwmen are dangerous, rapey men in disguise.

Statistics as to attacks by transwomen seem hard to find - they seem to the subject of violence as opposed to the perpetrators. As they are such an insignificant part of the population, if every single one was playing the long game to get access to a vulnerable woman, it would still be a long, long way down my list of priorities. Things like FGM are much more common and deserving of support and erradication. If one person's life is as important as another's then you focus limited resources on improving things for the largest number of people.

If someone came onto a DV thread and said women were clearly the most violent and used lesbian violence in relationship stats (truly shocking stats, by the way) to back it, they would rightfully be told to get to fuck. Unless you use numbers directly from transwomen attacking women in places they wouldn't be able to access as a man, you don't have a good argument.

I have reported about 20 comments on this thread.

I get it when it comes to women's rights and how how hard you all think it is to be a woman.

But just for a moment imagine what it's like to dispise your gender and the body you were born with. To look in the mirror everyday and be hurt by what you see.

A trans woman has it much harder than a cisgendered woman.

When people say 'read some threads on here and educated yourself'

Don't you will just become a bigot like the rest of them.

Also when are people going to learn that Penis does not equal sexual assault?

We don't "think" how hard it is to be a woman, we know!

Thanks for your reply Sans but I do think if you believe this to be true

It isn't about demanding women's groups are centred on transwomen (unless you read AIBU or the Daily Mail)

then you perhaps should find out a bit more about what's happening.

Haven't got time to do links at mo but these are all real, true, actual examples

• Riley, above, saying that a lesbian deciding who she wants to have sex with is a decision which should be centred on the feelings of transwomen

• a lesbian event on erasure and silencing of lesbians at a feminist conference being stopped as it did not centre transwomen

• transwomen and allies objecting to women wearing pussy hats on the women's march against Trump because pussy hats are transphobic (true story)

• transactivists trying to shut down a library of working class history because it held an event where Julie Bindell spoke about growing up as a working class lesbian in the 70s

Shall I go on?

When people say 'read some threads on here and educated yourself'

Don't you will just become a bigot like the rest of them.

Unintentionally illuminating. "Don't think about this, women, or you will not be able to maintain the cognitive dissonance needed to believe men can be women!"

A trans woman has it much harder than a cisgendered woman

How is that relevant (if it is indeed true)? Please explain.

Do we just have to put everyone in a heirarchy of oppression, and then the people at the top bottom of the ladder get to tell anyone above them to shut up? How does that work?

Spot on Flora You can't unknown something.

hellie Would you like to give your opinion on Riley's thoughts on whether genital preferences are transphobic? (see video above)

I have reported about 20 comments on this thread You may well have done, and should if you think they are offensive. I haven't seen any offensive comments (just a few pp calling the OP a GF).

Perhaps you could argue against the comments you disagree with instead.

Tumble thank you so much for posting, my DC is FtM and also an abuse survivor who recognises that their female body makes them vulnerable. Apparently not claiming to be male means that they aren't trans enough and has invited horrible abuse from trans activists. Not being comfortable around male genitals makes them transphobic, which for a trans person is quite a feat!

I've had to name change to post about this as I've previously posted very openly about our journey as a family, unfortunately we've had an awful lot of abuse thrown our way and DC has just had enough. So I really appreciate how brave it is for you as a trans woman to stick your head above the parapet here

I'm just going to copy and paste a few paragraphs from my post on another thread about this, because once again I'm reading people proudly announcing that they think MN is transphobic and waffling about what they think trans people need.
Even though actual trans people have posted on these threads to tell you that these women are the real trans allies for all trans people and not just those born with male bodies.

Apparently my FtM trans child is transphobic, who knew! Don't worry, it's nothing we haven't been told before as the family of a trans person who doesn't tow the trans activists line. Which is why I have name changed to make this post as the abuse is something we don't need when we have so much on our plate.

Just bear in mind that the average trans person wants these conversations to be had so that together we can work out how to meet the needs of both trans people and females who feel vulnerable, because both deserve to feel safe. A very large proportion of trans people are female bodied after all. They are just much much quieter.

If you think by yelling transphobe at anyone asking questions about how we can get this right for everyone and not just MtF trans you are sticking up for trans people, then you're wrong. You're sticking up for the extremist trans activists that make life hell for the average trans person who just wants to be left alone to live in peace! Thanks for that.

It's easy to act a troll online and give yourself a high five and really think you've fought for women's rights today

That's a bit rich from someone who has obviously changed their username to post this. And you're living in a dream world if you think people who are aware of what is going on want female sex segregated spaces to be shared with men. What you are seeing on mumsnet is what a majority of women actually think and say when they're not censored.

Simple explanation: if there was a drug or operation which could make a white person "black". How do you think black activists would react?
Is changing skin colour as an adult the same as being born with that skin colour, growing up with that skin colour, and passing that skin colour onto your children?

I don't care about toilets etc. I don't like communal changing rooms anyway. But I don't think Caitlyn Jenner has the same understanding of being a "woman" that I do.
And I worry about just why some people want to change their gender - I don't think there should really be anything that a woman can do that a man can't and vice versa (except give birth/pee up walls).

And I am now educating people in real life when the subject arises. When they understand that most transwomen are intact males, and what is being expected of women, when they think about it for more than the five seconds most people give it, they get it. Men and women alike.