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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder why it's so transphobic here?

403 replies

user1490186326 · 22/03/2017 12:48

Really what's the big deal if a transwoman uses the women's toilets or changing rooms - they are women after all!

Can you not possibly imagine how hard it must be to be born into the wrong body? Imagine the pain and distress that must cause?

I have a friend who is a transwoman and she is the kindest most gentle soul you could ever meet so hearing her being referred to as a bloke in a dress or that she has a perverted fetish is just heartbreaking.

Can't we just show a little bit of empathy for these people who have been through so much pain already?

OP posts:
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VintagePerfumista · 22/03/2017 15:23

Tinfoilhattie's paragraph is about the sanest thing I've ever read.

LateDad · 22/03/2017 15:25

From Boiing

It's true that many men now use the site - yet another invasion of a space created for females - sigh

I come here to read and to (try to) understand. Would you rather I didn't?

terrylene · 22/03/2017 15:27

Tinfoilhattie's paragraph is about the sanest thing I've ever read.

Yes

Trifleorbust · 22/03/2017 16:00

If there was a trans area on MN, it would be placed there for transpersons, not transphobes to use Hmm

Just like the Feminism section is for feminists rather than MRAs and F4J to come online and slag feminists off.

WhereYouLeftIt · 22/03/2017 16:23

OP, you seem to think that this is all about toilets. I guess I understand why so many people focus on that, it's probably the first thing that comes to mind when you hear the phrase 'women-only spaces'. Maybe it's the only women-only space you've ever been in.

But we're actually talking about domestic violence shelters, prisons, hospital wards, psychiatric wards; even sports. Oh, and scholarships in STEM subjects because it's recognised that gender socialisation dissuades girls from studying them.

Ask yourself why these women-only spaces exist. Why they have ever existed. Could it be to ensure the safety of women? Or their dignity? Both these things are pretty important.

But you're focussed on toilets, so lets talk about toilets.

"Do you really think a man is just going to stick on a wig and a dress and pretend to be trans so he can assault women in the toilets?"
It would seem that you think this is inconceivable. Why is that? What makes you think the type of man who will spend months, years, grooming victims, wouldn't be willing to make so little effort? Not that he has to make that effort anyway - just has to say he feels he is really a woman. If you don't believe that, the photo I've attached is on Danielle Muscato and her words of wisdom. Admittedly not in the UK. For UK, google Alex Drummond, who wants to widen the bandwith of gender.

So, given that some transwomen don't feel the need to present as women, that gives men who are not transwomen an 'in'. They just have to say they're trans. No effort required. Probably quite appealing to , say, a teenager wanting to show how big he is and how uncomfortable he can make women, and all without having to do anything that could lead to charges. Sweet!

Perhaps you haven't appreciated the difference between normal people and predators. They don't have to assault you to get their jollies. They can savour your discomfort, your realisation that you can't do anything about their behaviour, your helplessness, your inability to take any action against them. It's a win-win for them.

Now, you mentioned your "friend who is a transwoman and she is the kindest most gentle soul you could ever meet ". She will not be immune in this scenario. Indeed, a predator may find it extra-exciting to discomfort a transwoman.

So please, get off your virtue-signalling high horse and think about what's happening. The world is changing, we need to accept that and have our laws, our institutions, our social conventions in place to accommodate those changes. But we need them to be thought through so that they offer everyone - women, transwomen, transmen, men - safety and dignity in their lives.

WhereYouLeftIt · 22/03/2017 16:24

Forgot to attach the photo I mentioned, here it is

To wonder why it's so transphobic here?
TinfoilHattie · 22/03/2017 17:11

It's been a while since I was the voice of sanity on any topic. I don't get all ranty and upset about this, and I do think that the idea that transwomen are calling themselves transwomen just to rape and assault the rest of us is a bit bonkers.

I do though worry for my daughter - it's really unfair that she'll have to complete for STEM projects or bursaries against transwomen, or if she were particularly sporty she wouldn't stand a chance as transwomen who are naturally stronger and faster take all the places on the team. Being a woman isn't always a picnic and it's taken a lot of women a lot of effort to get the level of equality we have now. It makes me cross that all of that is being swept aside because of a few very vocal transwomen.

There was a very earnest American student woman on Radio Scotland last Sunday morning saying we shouldn't use the word "female" as it's upsetting to transwomen. I don't know who she was as she made me so cross I had to switch over to Radio 4.

Just fecking be yourself. It's a sad state of affairs that a boy who likes pink or a girl who asks for a tool kit for her birhday is being labelled as "trans". It's a society problem that men who aren't bursting in enough self-confidence to say "Yes I'm wearing lipstick and earrings - you got a problem with that?" are then being forced down a path of saying they identify as female. Still waiting for someone to define how women or men "feel" as we're all so different.

It's all navel gazing bollocks. Be yourself. Be proud of your individuality. But don't try bending the basic laws of biology.

splendide · 22/03/2017 17:14

Very much agree with your post Tinfoil.

GloriaV · 22/03/2017 17:25

It's not transgendered people who are the problem directly. It is changes in the law which will allow anyone to change sex merely by stating that they have changed. Even if they have done nothing to change (such as clothing of new gender, take hormones etc).
So someone, a man in all aspects, can enter women's refuges, can apply for women only bursaries, can enter women only writing competitions etc etc.
I don't see that that is fair.
It is our politicians who are the problem, pandering to trans activists at the expense of women's rights.

SeparatedByMotorways · 22/03/2017 18:04

I try to stay out of these discussions but I'm wondering (genuine, well a intentioned, not trying to be a GF) if Danielle Muscavato is actually just a man trolling who has been picked up as an example of a transwoman. Maybe they're (she?) just trolling us all. I dunno. Seems like a potential red herring in a fairly nuanced topic...

Clandestino · 22/03/2017 18:11

TBH, I don't understand why this topic has to be rehashed all over again.
I personally am for biology. Male or female. It's our sexual organs that define our gender. And if the nature sometimes gets it wrong, I am all supportive of sex-changing surgeries.
So if you are a man and feel like a woman, no problem. Go and get the therapy and surgery done.
But I would feel like we are throwing away over 100 years of fighting for our issues if I go to a gym and shower beside a person with penis because "I feel like I'm a woman, darling".
I think it's time to de-philosophise things. There should be laws put in place which will require a person wanting to change their gender on their birth certificate and in life to undergo psychological tests and the whole therapy. If you feel like a woman, then go and get boobs and a vagina. If you feel like a man, get yourself balls and the dingler.

BeyondUser24601 · 22/03/2017 18:23

Seperated - Muscato is currently staying in a women's refuge and has been interviewed on the news, definitely a real person

BeyondUser24601 · 22/03/2017 18:24

Possibly still trolling, but if so = playing the long game.

SeparatedByMotorways · 22/03/2017 18:29

Beyond Oh. Now I feel silly. Confused

SeparatedByMotorways · 22/03/2017 18:30

(Also sorry if that had already come up, I hadn't rtft because these threads are bad for my stress levels. Sorry for making someone educate me on something that may have been covered already)

Chattymummyhere · 22/03/2017 18:40

A man can not ever become a women and a women can not ever become a man. Simple you will always biologically be X gender/sex.

It needs to be treated just like all other mental health issues, feeling like a man or women isn't a true thing because each man and women feel individually. Wearing a dress and putting on make up doesn't make you a women plenty wear jeans/joggers all day and never wear make up they are not men. Just like a man can wear a dress/skirt and wear make up but it doesn't make him a women.

BeyondUser24601 · 22/03/2017 18:43

(Not British news, just in case that was unclear)

To wonder why it's so transphobic here?
WhereYouLeftIt · 22/03/2017 18:52

SeparatedByMotorways I have pondered Muscato's motivation myself many times. What does he get out of this? Whatever it is, it's not womanhood.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog · 22/03/2017 18:54

The other problem with Muscato is that even if they turn out to be a troll playing the long game, they point up the fact that self-identification can lead to these utterly absurd consequences - a person with a beard and penis can rock up at a refuge for homeless women, take up a place there (thereby depriving someone with a vulva, uterus and ovaries from a place), and there is nothing the shelter can do about it because self-identification trumps everything else.

It's the legal absurdity that worries me most - how can you have something with such enormous real-world consequences (access to shelters for vulnerable women, being placed in women's prisons, places on women's sports teams) dependent on an unverifiable claim about the private contents of someone's mind? Specially since we know that some people lie! When someone commits fraud, there is external evidence which decides the matter - they say they didn't embezzle the firm they were working for, the dates of the computer transactions, the logs of who had access to the computer at the times required to carry out the transactions, the simultaneous appearance of large sums of money in their account give us independent, verifiable evidence that they're lying. But when someone (not trans, let's say a vindictive ex husband bent on revenge) walks into a shelter for DV victims and says "but I've realised I'm trans now, and that was the only reason I was so nasty to my wife, but now I know I'm a woman I'm perfectly safe to be around her now", according to self-identification legislation, that's it, end of story, no further evidence than his/her word on the state of his mind accepted.

I fully accept the right of trans people to employment, to housing, to be able to go about their business free from harrassment. But there are situations where biological sex matters, where it is necessary for safety for women to have spaces differentiated according to biological sex.

Sagggyoldclothcatpuss · 22/03/2017 18:57

Go check out the fb page "This Never Happens ".

CaoNiMartacus · 22/03/2017 19:02

I think Muscato does a good job of inadvertently highlighting the absurdity of what's going on. He's my "go-to" when I want to explain my gender critical/TERFy views to people.

Carriemac · 22/03/2017 19:10

*I do, however, have a lot of questions about why biological actual women have to suffer in order to accommodate the whims and needs of men who have decided to become woman. And why their needs trump ours, when we've spent hundreds of years carving out societal space for ourselves and dying for the cause.

That's not a phobia. It's a genuine question and debate that deserves to be had.*

This absolutely

Gallavich · 22/03/2017 19:40

Fear of 'regular' men is unfounded

Are you fucking kidding?

Gallavich · 22/03/2017 19:42

samscomic

Male and female brains are different due to socialisation and the impact of the sex hormones that are produced.
That is the difference between them. Other than that there are no intrinsic skills that female brains develop over male, or proclivities that are more male than female.

JaneEyre70 · 22/03/2017 20:02

What TinFoilHattie said. With bells on.