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Original poster

To wonder why it's so transphobic here?

403 replies

user1490186326 · 22/03/2017 12:48

Really what's the big deal if a transwoman uses the women's toilets or changing rooms - they are women after all!

Can you not possibly imagine how hard it must be to be born into the wrong body? Imagine the pain and distress that must cause?

I have a friend who is a transwoman and she is the kindest most gentle soul you could ever meet so hearing her being referred to as a bloke in a dress or that she has a perverted fetish is just heartbreaking.

Can't we just show a little bit of empathy for these people who have been through so much pain already?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
SansComic · 22/03/2017 14:33

it's all down to the pink and blue brains

Shhhhhhhhh!

MN'ers hate the fact that many scientists and studies have shown differences in male and female brains.

splendide · 22/03/2017 14:35

Have they Sans?

morningrunner · 22/03/2017 14:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

noeffingidea · 22/03/2017 14:36

LOL, showing your true colours now sanscomic, aren't you? That didn't take long, did it?

VestalVirgin · 22/03/2017 14:38

MN'ers hate the fact that many scientists and studies have shown differences in male and female brains.

No, not at all.

There are indeed some small differences between female and male brains.

Guess what? Transwomen have male brains. What a surprise. Not.

Those who report dysphoria, however, have some brain structures in common with anorexia sufferers.

Again, no surprise.

FirstSeemItThenBeIt · 22/03/2017 14:42

I know that Tommy Grin

I'm being deliberately obtuse to make a point...

TinfoilHattie · 22/03/2017 14:43

I have no problem with transgender people. They can wear what they like, call themselves what they like, sleep with who they like and do what they like in their spare time. If they prefer to be addressed as she/he or him/her I'll try to remember to do it - I'm nice like that. Live and let live, peace and love.

However. (And it's a BIG however). I do not buy into to the "born in the wrong body" or "female penis" stuff. Sex is binary. You're born a man or a woman. (And let's not get into the medical condition of intersex as that's a total red herring and irrelevant). Your sex is written into every cell of your being. It's not as simple as saying penis=man and womb=woman - I don't have my uterus or cervix any more, but I'm still female. Someone who loses their penis in some dreadful accident isn't any less of a man. Undergoing plastic surgery, changing your name and what you wear does not change your sex. Men can become transwomen and should aboslutely be accepted as such, not judged and not discriminated against but they are not women/female.

picklemepopcorn · 22/03/2017 14:46

Typed out a carefully thought our reply, then decided Biscuit

ChoccyJules · 22/03/2017 14:48

Remind me why we can't have a Trans section again? Hmm

SansComic · 22/03/2017 14:48

Which true colours. I'm not trying to hide anything. I assume by that, you mean I'm a terrible tranny-supporter. Having a scientifcally supported opinion that is different to yours shouldn't be something that is shouted down. I don't think it's me showing myself to be rude or unable to listen and engage.

I believe men and women tend to have different brains.

I think there are certain similarities in the reasoning or cause behind sexuality and gender identity and I think neither group should be treated any the lesser for it.

Nothing I've said about homosexuality and trans has been disingenuous, goady or anything other than simply my respectful opinion. The closest I got was asking why you said gay vs straight was clouding what I was trying to say when it wasn't.

"many scientists and studies have shown"
Is it just me or does that sound a bit "Trumpy"

Well, that is goady, but I have no idea what makes it Trumpy. The jury on gendered brains is still out there with respected scientists coming out on either side.

I find the suggestion that women and men can be so different biologically so many ways (elbows, muscles, reproductive, pelvis, fat percentage, weights, strength, cranium shape) but "Brains! No! Absolutely the same in every way!" entirely bewildering.

Assuming that brains do tend to be different between the sexes, I don't see trans as something to be feared and don't think that it is as simple as being "bepenised" or bevagined.

TheWorldAccordingToToads · 22/03/2017 14:51

The brain is plastic.

Studies show that taxi drivers have different brain structures to people who aren't taxi drivers.

DJBaggySmalls · 22/03/2017 14:53

splendide
but there are racial groups that are more likely to be violent

No there arent. Go read about the Stanford Experiment for starters.

Kennington · 22/03/2017 14:56

For the sake of argument let's say males and females do have different brains. Fine.
Our brains are not separate from the rest of our bodies. You cannot separate the two. Our brain controls our body functions to an extent and isn't an independent entity.
Our biology is just that, female = potential to produce/have produced eggs. Males don't have this potential. On top of that our skeletons, muscle mass and Chromosomes are not the same.
All power to the trans community but you are not actually helping the trans discussion with cod science.

brasty · 22/03/2017 15:00

Read Cordelia Fine Delusions of Gender. The so called scientific studies that show girls naturally like playing with dolls and boys naturally like playing with trucks, have no scientific validity whatever. There are actually more differences in brain structure between those brought up in Finland and the US, than between women and men. That is because brains have plasticity and respond to their environment.

TheWorldAccordingToToads · 22/03/2017 15:01

MN'ers hate the fact that many scientists and studies have shown differences in male and female brains.

But are they different because they are male/female or are they different because the gender roles enforced on them by society?

Like I've already said, the brain is plastic.

Taxi drivers have different brain structures to people who aren't taxi drivers.

People who have anorexia have different brain structures to those who don't have it. Studies have also found that those with clinical depression have different brain structures to those without depression.

Those studies that found differences in male and female brains; would there have been a difference if gender didn't exist and people were just allowed to wear whatever they want, be interested in whatever they want, etc?

brasty · 22/03/2017 15:01

I have actually read many of the so called scientific studies, and honestly they have as much validity as the experiments that show homeopathy works.
If you believe homeopathy works though, then I guess you are not into science based evidence.

splendide · 22/03/2017 15:03

DJBaggy - is that the prison one?

I don't see the relevance, sorry - can you explain.

I am absolutely not saying there is a difference in violent crime convictions because black men are inherently more violent, I am saying that in our extremely unfair shitty system a black man is more likely to commit a violent crime.

So if I was trying to avoid people most likely to commit a violent crime it would make statistical sense to avoid black men. But I don't think it's OK to use statistics in this way.

I do feel comfortable excluding men from women's spaces due to a statistical increased likelihood of violence though - was trying to work out why I think it's different.

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer · 22/03/2017 15:04

Its really easy

If you dont want to look at trans threads....dont open the thread

If you think something is transphobic.....report and point out what you think is transphobic

Dont post under the name 'user...bunch of random numbers'....because some people post under that name so all the posters blend into one and the goady fuckers can hide.

Not all 'users' are goady fuckers but i tend to see that name now and jump to a conclusion...probably wrongly in most cases

Boulshired · 22/03/2017 15:11

It is the unintended consequences (mainly to do with self identification) that cannot be debated in a civil manner as languages has been controlled in a way that any concern is bigotry. This is what causes the "them and us" environment. My brain was not the reasons that men have silenced me and abused me, and everything to do with not being born with a penis.

Boiing · 22/03/2017 15:14

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SansComic · 22/03/2017 15:17

TheWorldAccordingToToads

www.upi.com/Health_News/2017/02/08/Brain-differences-hint-at-why-autism-is-more-common-in-males/9701486583987/
www.cbc.ca/news/health/men-women-brains-difference-1.3473154

Copying and pasting links is pointless! I'd have assumed that people would assume that gendered brains are still being debated and studied.

Yes, it's plastic. What does this suggest? Perhaps that living as a woman (transwoman) can change your brain to become more inline with a woman's brain? Perhaps you're saying that people with certain brains are more likely to become teachers or STEM workers or taxi drivers.

What were you saying?

But are they different because they are male/female or are they different because the gender roles enforced on them by society?

We don't know and there aren't really any studies which can eliminate environment effects on a wide enough range of subjects to answer this at the moment.

Kennington

Why cod-science?

For the sake of argument let's say males and females do have different brains. Fine

Done.

Our biology is just that, female = potential to produce/have produced eggs. Males don't have this potential.

Yes.

So, following that, you can be a 'woman' in a mans body. It depends on if you think being a woman is about your body or your brain.

If there are brain differences (and it's a wide continuum with a lot of overlap) then at some extremes, there are going to be people who feel they are so far along this continuum that they are actually in the wrong body and I don't believe they should be treated with fear.

VestalVirgin · 22/03/2017 15:23

Those studies that found differences in male and female brains; would there have been a difference if gender didn't exist and people were just allowed to wear whatever they want, be interested in whatever they want, etc?

Some differences are likely genetical and would stay. (But yes, those caused by what the brain is used for would vanish).

However, this still does not mean that transwomen have ladybrains. Their brains are just as male as the rest of their bodies.

There is not one observable female trait that all males who identify as transwomen have in common - they do not, for example, all have female musculature, or bone structure, or a sparse beard, or a high voice.

I don't even need a study to wager a guess that most of the males who identify as women likely also have a typically male brain, and those who don't likely do not outnumber the ordinary men who also have a more "feminine" brain.