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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Muslim prayers

426 replies

Amibeingtoosensitive · 14/03/2017 19:11

My DD (9) had R.E today
They were learning about Muslim prayers. All fine.
They then went on to get prayer mats and say a Muslim prayer, with their shoes off, on their knees as a group.

AIBU to feel uncomfortable about my DD being made to do a religious practice we do not believe in.

OP posts:
woodhill · 17/03/2017 09:04

Interesting about the Prayer being in Arabic, reminds me of the church service being in Latin in the Middle Ages. Is the prayer similar to the Lord's Prayer in essence or a liturgy?

Sorry Starry -
Muslim.

TheElephantofSurprise · 17/03/2017 09:05

21 years an RE teacher. Would NOT have done that at all, ever.
It's 'bad practice'. We aren't in it to ape other people's experience, that's not respectful. So we don't try on turbans, we don't act out the Eucharist.
So, a poorly-educated, not 'right on' teacher taking RE. A shame. Not the end of the world.
And of course, RE has 'moved on' since I learned how to do it. Nowadays there might be all kinds of bad practice lauded as 'experience' or some such. Teaching is so much different than it was in 1993 Grin

Islam is a great religion - not just in numbers, but in its understanding of and sympathy for the human condition. It provides people with clear guidelines for decent living and with hope for eternal life. For those who take a Sufi route, mysticism and love. I'm Christian and I love Islam. There you go.

muhajaba · 17/03/2017 09:09

Why is it that every thread on Mumsnet that has anything to do with Islam or organised religion just ends up with arrogant know-it-all posters aggressively bashing religion and arguing against actual facts Confused

Applebite · 17/03/2017 09:09

If the Quran is genuinely not misogynistic - and I've read many articles where people argue about how it was thanks to Mohammed that women were allowed to inherit property and men were obliged to protect them etc - then how has it become the basis for things like women having to cover up from head to toe; a woman's testimony being worth half a man's; a man being able to have 4 wives but a woman only 1 husband; a man being able to divorce on simply saying it 3 times but a woman has to persuade a council of men... where does all that come from? Is it just being misinterpreted? Or is it that all religious texts have similarly unpleasant parts but most people following them today don't practice them to the same degree?

woodhill · 17/03/2017 09:11

Plimsoll you can still follow a religion and be knowledgeable about science.

muhajaba · 17/03/2017 09:18

You made the statement, you provide the proof for it, how is Islam compatible with science?

You are the one who suggested religious people read a science book, as if we are ignorant and don't know or believe anything about science.
I'm not interested in debating with people like you, it's just annoying and a waste of time, if you were open-minded and interested in learning more you would have already done it.

Feelinglikeafailure · 17/03/2017 09:26

Why is it that every thread on Mumsnet that has anything to do with Islam or organised religion just ends up with arrogant know-it-all posters aggressively bashing religion and arguing against actual facts

I guess it's the same reason there are and have been so many religious wars

SewMeARiver · 17/03/2017 09:39

I don't believe either WW1 or WW2 were motivated by religion so much as rabid patriotism.

SewMeARiver · 17/03/2017 09:41

And recent invasions in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc motivated by political ideological reasons

Feelinglikeafailure · 17/03/2017 09:57

I never said ALL wars.

samG76 · 17/03/2017 10:02

woodhill - prayers being in Arabic is definitively NOT the same as the mass being in Latin. The medieval prayers were said in Latin specifically so that they couldn't be understood by the masses (wrong word, I know!). That's why transalations into the vernacular were forbidden by the Catholic Church. Arabic, by contract, is a living language, and children are taught it because familiarity with the text is considered important.

ollieplimsoles · 17/03/2017 10:05

I'm not interested in debating with people like you, it's just annoying and a waste of time, if you were open-minded and interested in learning more you would have already done it.

Christ- I just told you I have read the Quran, I have read sociology and theology books about religion, I follow religious blogs and youtube channels, I actually have an interest in learning more and have done for years!

Islam is a great religion - not just in numbers, but in its understanding of and sympathy for the human condition. It provides people with clear guidelines for decent living and with hope for eternal life.

^cherry picking at its absolute finest there.

I'm out.

Alfieisnoisy · 17/03/2017 11:05

Cool down folks...it's only religion....okay massive understatement right there.

Firstly I now many very clever people ...including scientists who also follow religion of some kind and believe in it.

I know other people including scientists who think it's all bunkum.

The scientists who believe in God will say...I think there is a God.
The scientists who don't believe will say ...I don't think there is a God. You see the funny thing about scientists is that they tend not to say anything with much certainty....unless they are Richard Dawkins.Grin

EnormousTiger · 17/03/2017 11:19

In fact a gene has been discovered with makes you more likely to believe in God actually. It's a fascinating issue.

Most people are pretty good and kind on this planet whether religious or otherwise. I think most of us know that.

Sometimes it's hard to know when to accept the customs of others and when that might amount to an acknowledgement they are true or right but however we object to something we can always do it politely. I think the British of all religions and none are quite good at that.

I was presented with a Koran (in English) in Iran when I was there on business and I still have it. Obviously many of us (religious people or otherwise) have read most of the main religions' principal texts. It's always been interesting to me.

You would not normally ask primary school children to pray and some people don't want to go into different religions' places of worship. Rules can be quite complex. the C of E lets anyone take communion there including Catholics. Catholics don't allow anyone to take communion if they aren't Catholic (Tony Blair when still protestant did so and there was uproar. He has since converted). If you take a group of children into a place of worship or anywhere else for that matter like a library (be quite) , theatre, don't misbehave, museum - don't steal the artefacts or run around it is a good idea to give them a good idea of who to behave in advance so they don't annoy people where they are going.

muhajaba · 17/03/2017 11:26

ollieplimsoles when you say things like this- Why don't you open your mind a bit, stop living by a fusty 2000 year old book of barbaric stories and magic tricks it doesnt make you look like you are interested or open minded...surely you can see that!

Anon1234567890 · 17/03/2017 11:54

I think some religions might have issue with their child praying to another religion and that's fair enough but if you don't believe in anything then it's just' acting' surely

Acting out something abhorrent you disagree with, is still abhorrent disagreeable. For example pretending to mock someone is as hurtful to them as actually mocking them.

OopsDearyMe · 17/03/2017 11:58

Ollie : you are confusing your search for evidence to back up your judgemental views with genuinely being open minded and open to learning about the beliefs of others.

OopsDearyMe · 17/03/2017 12:10

What I love most is that comment about a fusty old book, its the go to thing ! But you know what I'll open you're mind a bit and tell you a secret, you can have faith WITHOUT subscribing to ANY book, its called revelation and what really narks people like you is that unless you believe you cannot experience I and because your mind and heart is closed you can't get it.

Its like when people say the can imagine the pain of childbirth, when they have never experienced it. You cannot get it unless you experience it.

OopsDearyMe · 17/03/2017 12:11

I am also not closed minded at actually and telling a nurse to pick up a science book! Pretty much sums up your level.

Janey50 · 17/03/2017 17:57

Applebite I have sometimes wondered about the same things. Many muslims are at great pains to point out that the Quran is not misogynistic regarding inheriting property,saying that women are mens' equals etc but the reality of it is totally different. From what I have read about Sharia law,it discriminates against women at every opportunity. So what are we meant to believe? No wonder people end up confused.

EnormousTiger · 17/03/2017 18:20

It says women keep their money in marriage and men have to use theirs to keep the family or families. It treats men and women differently which I hate but I do not think it is more sexist than many ancient cultures. I don't think it does discriminate against women at every opportunity.

However it needs a reformation which Christians had but Islam hasn't yet, just to bring it up to date.

I watched an interesting programme about Muslim polygamy in Germany this week on youtube They pointed out that in the original states most men annot afford two or more wives and of course if each new child and every new wife instead in Germany means more benefits things are very different so an awful lot more men have a few wives and the state obviously keeps them.

muhajaba · 17/03/2017 18:43

Janey50 The Quran is not misogynistic nor is Shariah IMO but unfortunately some people are and they deliberately twist things to suit their own agenda. EnormousTiger is correct that Islam treats men and women differently, we don't think that's a negative thing though.

muhajaba · 17/03/2017 18:56

However it needs a reformation which Christians had but Islam hasn't yet, just to bring it up to date
There are various reform movements within Islam but as there are so many variations in beliefs and practices, along with no central clergy, reform in the Christian style would be pretty impossible I think. I believe most Muslims would agree that that kind of modernisation and updating is not compatible with Islam anyway. Personally, I do think Islam needs reformed but I think we need to go back to the roots of the religion, not make up a new one.

EnormousTiger · 17/03/2017 21:08

muha, I know ( re men and women being treated differently and indeed that is a view of many atheists and plenty of religions too).

I suppose the Catholic church v Prostestant is one comparison. The C of E in the UK are allowed things like contraception, abortion, remarriage in church, gay marriage, sex before marriage tolerated and Catholics not.. although like plenty of westernised muslims in the UK plenty of Catholics will indeed practise contraception and not be a virgin on their wedding day so I suppose that's modernisation (or corruption by Western influences from the other point of view) as much as a reformation.

The roots of Christianity and Islam are pretty good - Jesus said the greatest of all the principles was love, love one another and that nothing else counted. then man (it's always the men isn't it who get things wrong) added a whole load of other rules to control women's sexuality, treat women as property and control other men too and made things much worse that the basic ideal of equality.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

We seem to lose that basic equality at times.

muhajaba · 17/03/2017 21:38

I suppose that's modernisation (or corruption by Western influences from the other point of view) as much as a reformation
Exactly..this is why a total or even majority reform will never happen because we'll all just never agree! I think that tolerance is the only way forward, for Muslims and everyone else, even if we don't all agree on everything and don't all want to live the same way we should try to accept it and at least be polite about it Smile