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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Muslim prayers

426 replies

Amibeingtoosensitive · 14/03/2017 19:11

My DD (9) had R.E today
They were learning about Muslim prayers. All fine.
They then went on to get prayer mats and say a Muslim prayer, with their shoes off, on their knees as a group.

AIBU to feel uncomfortable about my DD being made to do a religious practice we do not believe in.

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 16/03/2017 11:46

It's the deference bit I have an issue with. Why should I defer to beliefs I believe to be dangerous, damaging and ridiculous?

ohidoliketobebesidethecoast · 16/03/2017 11:56

I think people may be confusing being respectful with agreeing or even understanding?
I don't believe in any god, and I'm puzzled that many people do, but I can feel that way and still behave respectfully toward those people. I can be shocked at atrocities carried out in the name of religion, but that doesn't in any way justify disrespect toward entire groups because they have a belief I don't share.

Alfieisnoisy · 16/03/2017 12:55

Yes I meant being respectful to the person...another human being who you may not agree with. It shouldn't impact upon your ability to treat that person with humanity. Understanding their faith doesn't mean you have to agree with it or even respect it but at least you have the knowledge to understand what their faith is.

I have several friends who follow various religions, they are Catholic, Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist....I like an eclectic mix it seems Grin. I understand their religions, I understand why their faith is important to them (especially the Catholic priest friend...many a drunken discussion with him) but I don't practice any of those religions myself. More friends who are openly atheist or humanist...I understand and respect them too.

A bit of tolerance, respect and humanity goes a long way.

BertrandRussell · 16/03/2017 13:15

The problem occurs when people of faith impose their beliefs on other people. As, for example, expecting children to take part in Christian worship in state funded schools. .........

Alfieisnoisy · 16/03/2017 13:51

Thing is Bert that all schools will do stuff which there is no evidence for at all. I think of stuff like Gym Trail which my son and many others have done over the years because of claims that it improves this that and the other. Not a shred of evidence to support it but it was a nice social and fun event where he got together with other children and had fun.

Likewise the religion stuff in schools...they are told that they have to do some form of "broadly Christian" assembly. Every school interprets that "broadly Christian" in different ways. Some go the whole hog and do full on praying while others will get together once a week and get the children to just close their eyes and think of nice things to be thankful for with no instruction to who or what they should be directing that thanks.

My son attended a Catholic primary school...and even these differ in how much religion there is. The school my son attended had input from the priest for a Mass once a term in school but lunchtimes were started most days with the HT getting the children to rub their bellies and say "rub a dub dub, thanks for the grub". This was because in his words "not all our pupils are Catholic or even religious". Meanwhile my niece doing her teacher training in a Catholic school elsewhere says the pupils pray three times a day ShockShock and attend Mass every other week.

BartholinsSister · 16/03/2017 14:42

The problem with RE teaching is they seem to gloss over the unpleasant aspects of religions, particularly at primary level. All these fun rituals, feasts and celebrations but little mention of the threats of eternal damnation, misogyny, stonings, circumcision etc.
It's perfectly possible to respect a person without respecting their beliefs. If I was to announce I'd seen a unicorn, I'd expect a bit of teasing at the very least, even if I showed everyone the hoofprints.

Alfieisnoisy · 16/03/2017 15:14

I think it's okay to look at feasting and rituals etc but once children reach more maturity I would support some of the horrendous stuff which has come with religion being discussed.

Reteacher101 · 16/03/2017 17:38

You want to look at stoning in primary school? Confused

bonfireheart · 16/03/2017 17:45

OP I think you should take your child to a hypnotherapist so she forgets all about her lesson speaking "nonsense" Muslim words. Write to Ofsted and have the school closed down. Ring 101 and report them to child cruelty. Dress up as batman and climb onto the school roof- but first find out what religion batman was (he covers his face so I assume he might have Muslim tendencies).

Anon1234567890 · 16/03/2017 17:50

You want to look at stoning in primary school?

This old grey haired in the sky made it rain so hard and for so long he drown almost every man woman and child on the entire planet, but their is cuddly animals on a boat awwww and oh look at the pretty rainbow, ahhhhhhhh. What a lovely story.

What is the point?

Lessthanaballpark · 16/03/2017 18:12

I'm all for religions to be taught from a historical point of view.

If everyone learned the political context in which religions spread and embed themselves in cultures very few people would believe in them.

And it's unfair to make kids pray because they just end up feeling guilty for doubting it.

Shallishanti · 16/03/2017 18:14

very true about Noah, terrible story. Abraham and Issac also awful.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 16/03/2017 18:16

shall

I always got very upset about all the animals

Plus i coulnt figure out how they sacrificed the ram and they still managed to get sheep Confused

Ive worked it out now before anyone tries to explain it to me

superstaary · 16/03/2017 19:25

As a Muslim I'd be really interested to know what these "nonsense" words that the teacher was instructing the children to say were? How did the teacher learn them, Arabic is hardly easy Hmm

Im also amazed that in a classroom there would be enough room for the children to all do this.

Muslim prayers are very complicated, most children dont learn them fully till at least 10, the movements themselves are not the most important part. Its the very specific recitation of Arabic that is important.

I can't see what benefit any child would have got from this, a video would have done the job, and I'd expect that a teacher would have known that.

I think this is just an attempt to stir, my child goes to a Catholic school and does know the Lord's prayer, its not a big deal. He goes to church and sings the hymns, I certainly don't mind. I would be a bit puzzled if for example he was taught RE by being given a wafer rather than it being explained what the wafer represented to Catholics. I wouldn't be outraged like the OP, but I doubt this would ever happen, just like I doubt the OPs story happened.

Wriggler79 · 16/03/2017 19:30

I'd be uncomfortable with it, as it seems disrespectful to people who follow that faith. I'd feel the same no matter what religion it was. Not educationally necessary and just feels wrong.

bonfireheart · 16/03/2017 19:38

superstaary Hi! We are Muslims and my daughter goes to a Catholic school, they seem to spend a lot of time at church and mass and learning prayers. She has been learning about Judaism this term and the older children are learning about Islam. All this has done has helped to learn about and respect other people's beliefs. It certainly hasn't made her want to become Catholic/Jewish. I think a lot of people would like to believe that Muslims would throw their toys out of the pram if their children were taught a non-Muslim prayer. However both of us don't. Therefore it's likely our posts will get ignored for not being in line with the stereotypes most people would like to believe :)

miserableandinpain · 16/03/2017 19:50

Hi bonfire and super. Muslim here too. My comments got ignored even though i agreed with op. But then got called an irational parent because i have a belief system. Try not to let anything get to you x

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 16/03/2017 19:50

My sons are Muslim and the eldest is in a Catholic school like the previous posters he has learnt prayers, attended Mass, sung hymns, sent Christmas cards because that is what the school does and we knew that when we chose to send him there.

TomUI · 16/03/2017 20:00

OP, honestly I don't believe your account. Frankly I think you are making it up. The Muslim prayer is difficult and complicated, and Muslim children and adults spend days on end learning how to perform it.

Alfieisnoisy · 16/03/2017 20:16

Anon it IS possible to look at stories in the religious texts and discuss them without indoctrinating children into believing they are real you know.

My son learned about the story of Noah and the ark in school...we have had discussions about it since (he doesn't believe in it). My thoughts are that there was indeed a flood and it caused enough problems to be written down and for a primitive society to develop a narrative in order to make sense of it.

My son attended a Catholic school and doesn't believe in anything now.

But yes I have my doubts about the OP here...not enough room to do that kind of stuff for a start. ...unless they went to the school hall and got out the PE mats in which case the children will have learned nothing.

Original poster
Amibeingtoosensitive · 16/03/2017 20:19

Again, feel free to press the handy button that says report if you feel like I'm making this up.

I wish I was making it up. But unfortunately not

OP posts:
1horatio · 16/03/2017 20:36

It seems to me like RE in the UK should be more inclusive towards other, non-Abrahamic religions. (at least judging from the statements in this thread)

When I was about 11 I had an awesome religious studies teacher (for one year, unfortunately). We learned about Shintoism, Buddhism and for some reason Zoroastrianism (not sure why that. but it was cool and quite educational)

Anyhow, learning a prayer. Studying the "nice" parts of a religion... Well, I imagine that is quite lovely. But in a way also rather useless, isn't it? Or at least if it's just that.

It's a bit like talking about a communist utopia and not about... well, the reality of it. (maybe a bad analogy. But I'm tired and can't think of anything else).

But shouldn't historical context, the actual religious texts (if child appopriate), social repercussion be more important than knowing how somebody else prays?

But I do believe that schools should be as inclusive as possible. Whch requires to give parents the option to have their children opt-out if they only disagree with certain aspects of a class... (so parents should be informed in advance).

BertrandRussell · 16/03/2017 20:36

"I think a lot of people would like to believe that Muslims would throw their toys out of the pram if their children were taught a non-Muslim prayer. However both of us don't. Therefore it's likely our posts will get ignored for not being in line with the stereotypes most people would like to believe smile"

I don't think that at all. However, I would "throw my toys out of the pram" -aka make a perfectly reasonable complaint-if my child was expected to use the prayers of any religion.

TomUI · 16/03/2017 20:52

@1horatio:

Anyhow, learning a prayer. Studying the "nice" parts of a religion... Well, I imagine that is quite lovely. But in a way also rather useless, isn't it? Or at least if it's just that.

What do you mean by "nice" in invorted commas? Its awfully wrong and rude to suggest that parts of their faith are not "nice". It shows your ignorance and prejudice.

1horatio · 16/03/2017 20:55

their faith

please tell me what their faith is? Before I answer that question.... I want to know what I'm ignorant about. Oh, and of course also prejudiced.

I thought I clearly said " the "nice" parts of a religion"