Kids vaccinations - I would like the view from mothers

[OddJobMan]

Hi All.

First off I am a man before you ask but would love the view from Mothers perspective.

I reside on another forum and the discussion on kids vaccinations came up... one guy (who is not a parent) said he believes that the government should make it compulsory for parents to vaccinate their children and be fined if they don't. I personally believe vaccinations are a good thing but forcing more and more on parents and throwing legal action at them on ever little thing is going a step too far and where does this control stop..

So what say you Mums... should..

A. The government force vaccinations on children and fine parents that don't.

or

B. Leave it up-to the parents to decide.

As bundesliga said, leave it up to parents. Not compulsory for school.

Unless and until vaccinations become totally safe and as such the vaccine damage legislation is not needed, and is repealed, because nobody ever has to make a claim, you cannot make it compulsory for someone to take a perceived risk with their child's health for the benefit of the immuno-compromised. Education is the key, not compulsion.

Not all vaccinations work on a herd immunity basis anyway.

People get very emotional about vaccination but actually it's all about economics - it's cheaper to vaccinate (and pay for the odd bad side effect) than deal with the illnesses (and parents' need to take time off work to look after sick children).

barbarian some children can not be vacinated, why should they be at risk in an educational setting because of an anti pharm hippie!

lalalalyra

Yes, some people will get sick after a vaccine, but it's the same as a flu jab. It's better than coming down with the full blown illness. Put it this way - a bit of a cough and flu-like symptoms are better than having frigging polio.

And as for the HV's "because I say so" not being enough... well it should be! They're HEALTHCARE PROFESSIONALS. They're trained in this more than a parent in a support group! This is the problem - kids have been brought up now to question authority, so now we have a generation of parents who are over-ruling doctors and nurses who know better. God, I miss the days when if your doctor said you needed something, you did what they said.

B

I agree that jabs should be at the parents discretion, but equally that if your child hasn't had certain vaccinations without a genuine medical reason not to = no nursery/school/creche etc. Herd immunity only works for the immuno-compromised if everyone who can be vaccinated actually is.

As a disclaimer I live in west london where there are a lot of anti vaxers, and have had a child suffer rubella, before she was old enough to vaccinate!

Leave it up to the parents. But allow schools, nurseries etc. to refuse unvaxed kids.

By school age, all children are vaccinated unless their parents have chosen not to go this route, so the unvaccinated children will only infect each other
or pregnant women whose immunity has expired (personal experience of this re rubella - I was immune when PG with DD1 and not immune when PF with DD2);
or children with compromised immune systems who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons.
etc

I am pro vaccination but I don't agree with fining parents. I think the idea of not accessing certain social environments unless you're vaccinated is a better one.

fairweathercyclist

Actually, it's nothing to do with economics. More like a whole generation of children died or were permanently disabled because they caught diseases like polio, cholera, measles, diphtheria or worse.

It's economics for stuff like the flu jab, yes, but for really serious illnesses it's not.

I think parents should be held accountable for their decision not to vaccinate.
Outbreaks of measles are becoming increasingly common in America due to anti-vaxxers.
Herd immunity is what prevents outbreaks of these vile diseases, which were commonplace 40 years ago. I'm sure they would feel guilty if their child introduced this kind of illness into a nursery setting.

babycham socialist I know what you mean, and I'm not an anti-vaxer if that's the opinion you've taken of me. I was thinking more of the logistics of a mandatory system. Right now I was able to say "Yes DD can have the vaccination now, but I'll bring back DS when he's better". Which is what I did. How is that going to work if it's mandatory? There is little enough funding for checks and programmes at the moment so where is the funding for an enforcement team going to come from? And what are they actually going to do - take the child from the parent and vaccinate them?

As for the HV stance - it doesn't work. Yes, people should be able to instantly trust the word of their HV/GP/Whoever, but they don't. So the HV/GP/Whoever need to adapt the way they work. The HV could easily have said what I said, or what the other parents said about the vaccinations instead of sticking to the "Your child will be getting this vaccination because it's on the programme" line.

Like I said about DH's niece - she's 18. She only knows a couple of people who have ever had measles and they weren't very ill. So she questioned why her baby needed a vaccine against what was, to her, a very minor and uncommon illness. "Because we say so" left her saying "But why?". "Your Gr-Granny Meg lost five of her children under six-years-old to measles" had her asking how soon her DD could be vaccinated.

Education is a much better tool than any other imo.

I know a doula who takes her un vaxxed kids to births and visits! She cant understand why I was horrified at this !

I quite like the Australian system, where unless you have a medical exemption, or are a bona fide JW, or are on an approved 'catch up' programm (eg immigrants from countries with a different schedule) you cannot claim the full rate child benefit equivalent, and there are (according to the news today) moves to prevent enrollement in state schools.

I think that the child's right to an education should not however be impeded by parents choosing not to vaccinate. But that could be solved by LEAs being required to provide at least one school that will accept those who are not vacated and do not have a valid exemption.

Parental choice. I see the argument for saying they can't attend school unless vaccinated but it amounts to compulsion so it is unethical in my opinion.

Thank you all so far that have replied.

Looks like majority is to leave it upto the parents but not allow un vax kids into certain situations like nursery etc..

Much more sensible than using brute force and threat of legal action.

My cat can't go to the cattery without vaccines so I agree with those saying no access to school/nursery.

I don't have children but I'm pro vaccination. However, I disagree that a HV saying children should be vaccinated 'because I say so' is enough of a reason to vaccinate. Say it by all means and then back it up with facts.

I also don't think parents are negligent in all cases if they don't vaccinate. I had all my vaccinations except whooping cough as there was a huge scare about the jab at the time. I don't consider my DM to be negligent, she was thinking of my health and the risks to me and, back then, there wasn't internet to allow her to do her own research is she took a decision based on what she thought was best.

lalalalyra

It wouldn't be hard to work out a system. Keep a centralised record that can be checked by your surgery or HV at regular intervals. Also, schools would get access to this and would be able to refuse a place to someone who hasn't had all their vaccinations and hasn't had a certified medical reason for not having them.

It'd cost less in the long run than what it costs us to look after ill kids because their "enlightened" parents refuse to vaccinate them.

I can see the argument for forcing parents tbh. People say that it should be up to them to decide for their own child, but what about the child's right to be protected from harm? It probably be to difficult and expensive to enforce though.

Another here who agrees that no vaccine = no school etc.

I say this because I'm mostly tired of people acting from a badly informed start point making decisions with global consequences.

I'm trained to read scientific journals, understand study reports and interpret the results, and I struggled with the technical literature on Vaccination, because it's not MY field.

I have no doubt that there are some parents capable of making a truly 'informed' choice based on the data, but there are going to be more doing so on an indequate understanding (as mine would have been) and far, far, far more who are doing it based on nothing but second, third, and even fourth hand sources, hearsay from friends and relatives and scaremongering on the internet, having never so much as looked at the literature.

That's not justification for risking the overall public health, but I equally can't get on board with forcing anyone to have a medical procedure they say no to.

I can, however, fully support limiting the damage those people can do to others, and to supplying a counterweight for the genuinely hard of thinking. No Jab = no free nursery would put around 10% on the uptake rate local to me, because it's not medical objection that stops the kids having them, it's 'can't be bothered to take the kid!'.

babychamsocialist

My issue with that is that we'd be punishing the child for the fuckwittery of the parent and I would argue very strongly against that.

I didn't get all my vaccinations as a child. Being chased up by the attendance officer was the only reason we went to school (I don't know what the legal stance of home ed was at the time, but my parents certainly believed that school was compulsory). The idea of my parents being able to take us completely off grid is a terrifying prospect. School was the only place we got fed and the only place we were safe for a few hours.

Kids would still get ill. There's no system that will keep unvaxed kids away from other kids in parks, or soft play or at the doctors or dentist.

I can see why people would want a ban. I do think that better education is a better option though. Some of the ante-natal/post-natal/HV advice is shite. I feel heart sorry for anyone who attends the clinic that my current HV is attached too. a) they tell people its compulsory to have your child weighed b) they make FF'ers feel like shit c) their 'off-record' weaning advice is shocking and pretty much everything comes with an air of "I'm the authority on all things child related and this is what I say" - anyone with their first child and little other support has no chance. I've got 6 kids, the baby has had 3 operations, my husband has been away for 6 months and the HV is that bad I still made the time to officially complain...

I also agree with no vaccinations = no nursery.

"I don't understand the "No vaccines, no school" argument. By school age, all children are vaccinated unless their parents have chosen not to go this route, so the unvaccinated children will only infect each other (which is clearly what their parents want for them)."

One of my close friends has never been able to have any kind of vaccination due to being a transplant recipient (she was born without kidneys). This whole anti-vaxx thing makes life extremely difficult for her.

Yes, it'd be punishing the child but sometimes you have to a bit. Yes, we can't protect them in doctor's surgeries and stuff, but it's surely better to minimise the risk by vaccinating as many kids as possible. You're less likely to catch an illness of an unvaccinated child if you're only exposed to them for 10 minutes than you are if you're exposed to them all day for 5 days a week.