Judge's warning to drunk women

[FirstShinyRobe]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-39233617

AIBU to think she had a marvellous platform with her retirement speech to issue instead a warning to men not to rape women?

And yet the judge, who with all her experience, knows that is most rapes don't occur between legless victims and random predators, chose to suggest that they do

Sorry limited, but you clearly have not read the judge's comments in any detail. She did NOT say that this is how most rapes occur. She made these comments when she was sentencing a rapist for 6 years for raping a girl on a canal path. That particular rape fitted the scenario you describe. She also made very clear that the fault lies with the rapist, but that she was begging women to keep themselves safe where possible.

You are more vulnerable to being attacked, and less capable of defending yourself, when you are drunk and this applies to all genders and all ages. That isn't shifting the blame, its common sense.

Its a sad thought that perhaps the judge reflected on a long and distinguished career and the over riding thought was that she had seen too many victims where drink had been involved.

allchattedout - the fact that there are pre-meditated rapists out there, who will take any opportunity to rape, does not negate the need for more education for the large numbers of people who don't fully understand what consent means. I mean, come on.

She wasn't victim blaming at all, she was giving sensible advice. As soon as I heard it I just knew there would be a stampede of women shouting about how she should have told men not to rape women. We all know that. But warning women about getting so pissed some nutter rapist may take advantage of that is god advice and it's true. Ffs.

It's really, really sad that some women haven't taken the time to inform themselves of the issues behind the problems with the judge's comments.

'Sensible advice' that's been said a million times before, is nothing to new to anyone, and over all the years it's been dished out, hasn't made a blind bit of difference to the incidence of rape - report or otherwise...

She is quite clearly making a point that women need to look after themselves. I wouldn't walk in a high crime area with expensive jewellery, watches and phones on show. I'd expect to be robbed, it doesn't make it my fault, just need to be sensible. Why are people not getting this!!!

I think it is two issues. Getting fall down drunk or drugged is a bad idea because it is disgusting. It does also make you more vulnerable to low lifes and criminals. Some prey on drunks.

Separately, being a victim of a rape is never the fault of anyone except the rapist.

Which is what the judge said.

allchattedout - the fact that there are pre-meditated rapists out there, who will take any opportunity to rape, does not negate the need for more education for the large numbers of people who don't fully understand what consent means. I mean, come on

I was talking about the context in which the judge made her comments, which you were criticising. It's not like she stood on the steps of the courthouse with a megaphone and made a public speech. She made these remarks when sentencing a rapist and her comments were much more balanced than the press have given her credit for.

Except that 30% of respondents across different surveys said that a woman was to blame, partially or wholly if she was drunk, scantily clad or flirted.

Drunkenness is used against women - by perpretators, by police, by barristers, by judges, even by friends and family.

We do not live in a world where people actually believe that women are not responsible for rape. That's why the way this 'advice' was framed is so problematic.

Many people cannot perform the mental gymnastic of thinking women are responsible for avoiding rape but not blaming them if they are perceived to have 'failed'.

That's why Slutwalks was devised.

I was talking about the context in which the judge made her comments, which you were criticising.

No I wasn't, I had directly quoted someone on this thread who said there was no point telling men not to rape, there was no point, etc, etc.

SlutWalks' aim is to end the culture of fear and victimisation.

Statement from Slutwalk, London:

"All over the world, women are constantly made to feel like victims, told they should not look a certain way, should not go out at night, should not go into certain areas, should not get drunk, should not wear high heels or make-up, should not be alone with someone they don't know. Not only does this divert attention away from the real cause of the crime – the perpetrator – but it creates a culture where rape is OK, where it's allowed to happen."

From this thread, it's clear that they have much more work to do.

OK, apologies for misunderstanding.

Agree with ninon

On a course I did recently, we were told that with a predominantly female jury, a man accused of rape is more likely to be acquitted - female jurors more likely to think they wouldn't have found themselves in that (vulnerable) position.

My advice to my DD - look after yourself and look after your friends . . . and the same advice goes to my DS. I have no objection to what the judge said.

If anyone is interested in the surveys, one was an ICP poll commissioned by Amnesty International in 2005, another was conducted by Haven 2010, another in 2015 was published by Office of National Statistics. There are many others.

From this thread, it's clear that they have much more work to do

Actually, I think what can be equally unhelpful is to single rape and sexual assault out as a 'unique case' and hugely different from all other crime. By doing so and spreading the impression that rape victims will never be believed, will be mistreated by the system, will be shamed, you are inadvertently putting people off reporting it.

By calling any discussion of safety 'slut-shaming' or 'victim-blaming', you are also setting sexual assault and rape apart from other crimes, where it is acceptable to warn victims about risks. Especially when the slutwalks seem to have no pragmatic solutions to how to stop rape.

They also give the impression that rape is a crime that is capable of being completely eradicated as long as attitudes change. I have not heard that about other types of crime- we don't pretend there will be a time when nobody will steal, nobody will be violent and nobody will kill. To most people, all of those crimes are abhorrent, including rape. However, people will still commit them, like they always have. It is therefore legitimate to think about ways to protect ourselves from those people.

I actually think teaching self-preservation and looking out for friends (and strangers) is very important. We need to treat ourselves and others well. We should not let our friend climb into an unlicenced minicab at 2 am. Nor should we let our friends walk alone and take a shortcut through woodland late at night. We are not 'slut-shaming' them or blaming them for anything that might happen. But we know what could happen (any number of things- not just rape), so we want to keep them safe.

It's not working is it though. Years and years we have had this message. Nothing changes. Rape is not decreasing. One in five women are raped. We have tried this message. It doesnt work. Maybe just maybe we could try something different.

Is there anyone who agrees with the judge, that thinks what she's said gets to the root of the problem, and will make any difference to the occurrence of rape and to rape culture?

Is there anyone who agrees with the judge, that thinks what she's said gets to the root of the problem, and will make any difference to the occurrence of rape and to rape culture?

The problem is that she made the comments in the context of a specific case and she has been misquoted. Is there anything that any judge could say that would make any difference to the occurrence of rape?

You may be interested in reading this. This legal blogger makes the point far better than I did about the danger of spreading the impression that police and courts victim-blame and will not believe victims of rape.

thesecretbarrister.com/

Thanks Allchatted
I read that. It was very interesting to have more of what the judge said, rather than just the report, and to have this explanation and analysis.

Thanks for that allchatted - I've read right to the end, and the blogger doesn't add anything to the debate that hasn't already been said on this thread.

His(?) ... her(?) - I don't know if the secret barrister is male or female - anyway, their final comment is:

But tragically the daily experience of the criminal courts shows that the message about personal safety still bears repetition. It won’t erase the problem, but it may help, in a narrow subset of cases, to save a few potential victims from having to pick up the fragments of their shattered lives off the courtroom floor. And if it does, it is a message which should be cheered by us all, with its judicial messengers celebrated rather than beaten into submission by misplaced accusations of “victim blaming”.

'It won't erase the problem'. '...it may help, in a narrow subset of of cases, to save a few potential victims...'

Look. These comments - from the judge and from this blogger - are not exactly going to cause a mass of light bulbs to go off, in a load of women's heads.

Oh right! Drink less! Don't get paralytic! This is brand new information! Why didn't I think of it before? Why didn't somebody tell me?!

Thanks so much for the enlightenment. The only people who don't already know this, are uncared for, marginalised, perma-vulnerable people, for whom the odds are staked completely against, as it is.

For what it's worth - here's another shout out to anyone who's been living under a rock, and didn't get the most recent memo: drink less!

Thanks so much for the enlightenment. The only people who don't already know this, are uncared for, marginalised, perma-vulnerable people, for whom the odds are staked completely against, as it is

OK, fine. It was the comments about rape culture that I thought s/he made better than me. There is really no need to be sarcastic. I could adopt a similar sarcastic tone to posts that say 'tell men that no means no' and 'tell men not to rape'. Wow- you think that was the solution all along? Nobody told them?

Anyway, I really don't think there is a magic solution to any crime. I think the thread was started as a criticism of the judge though and it's important to remember that she was not 'speaking to the nation' as some sort of saviour or claiming to have a solution. She was making the comments in a really narrow context, in a case where it would have made a difference for that particular victim had she not been drunk . Yes, her attacker was convicted and jailed, but it still happened to her.

I apologise for being flippant - I really do.

I just find it so frustrating. This is not new. We've been told this since forever. It's not helping in any sort of strategic way to actually address the root of the problem.

There is a huge opportunity to educate on consent, coercion and healthy relationships, though.

This actually has a chance of making a difference.