To think I have solved the heart of the trans gender identity issue very simply.

[JapaneseTea]

The basic problem with the proposed bill is that it conflates two discrete groups:

People with body dismorphia who want to have surgery and live as the opposite gender.

Men who wish to identify as women but keep their genitalia, and have access as women to women's spaces.

I support fully the first group. I do not support the second group.

How can the needs of the first group be met, without women having to give access to the second group?

Working today so may not reply quickly.

JAPAB
No, I am saying that gender identity does not equal and only equal societal gender stereotypes. People can have an internal sense that they are a man or a woman yet buck all of the classics such as football and pink.

Agreed. I think an awful lot of people hold the idea that being transgender is a choice that automatically supports/reinforces gender stereotypes. That's far too simplistic and inaccurate. Transwomen are open to criticism from some quarters whatever they decide to do about their appearance (too little, too much - both seem to attract disapproval).

Transwomen are open to criticism from some quarters whatever they decide to do about their appearance

If you wear feminine clothes, then transwomen are perpetuating stereotypes.

If they wear 'male' clothes, then they are criticised for not trying.

If they speak up, they are accused of using male privilege and dominating conversation.

If they say that they behave in ways and have self beliefs due to social conditioning that are similar to many women, they are accused of stereotyping female behaviour.

I'm not entirely sure how transwomen are supposed to behave and what self belief systems they are supposed to have. Nor what clothes transwomen are supposed to wear that would be acceptable to other people. It's a bit ironic that transwomen's behaviour and appearance are frequently commented on by some women and deemed to be acceptable or not acceptable.

No, I am saying that gender identity does not equal and only equal societal gender stereotypes. People can have an internal sense that they are a man or a woman yet buck all of the classics such as football and pink.

Is that true in transwomen/transmen though? I've met plenty of women who don't conform to female gender stereotypes but still feel like a woman because they recognise the biological reality and that stereotypes are bullshit. I've never come across a transwomen who felt comfortable to fit male stereotypes, but still had an innate sense she was a woman.

I've never come across a transwomen who felt comfortable to fit male stereotypes, but still had an innate sense she was a woman

If you felt that your sense of 'you' was wrong in a society we have today, would you try and fit into how society sees someone that you think you are - so what you see and what society sees matches up.

I've never come across a transwomen who felt comfortable to fit male stereotypes, but still had an innate sense she was a woman

I'm always surprised on threads like this how many transpeople people have met considering there aren't that many trans people. I've never met any who I am aware of through normal social and work life.

I have never met a transwoman

I have seen a few around town and i 'know' one at school by name and sight

A friends son is wanting to transition and amispartacus has been very helpful when i pmed with a few questions of my own

miniwookie
I've never come across a transwomen who felt comfortable to fit male stereotypes, but still had an innate sense she was a woman.

On almost every trans thread on here, somebody will post an image of Danielle Muscato, an activist and transwoman from the US whose appearance thus far doesn't appear to have changed. Whether Danielle fits your description (in terms of feeling comfortable) I don't know, but whenever her image is posted, it seems to be for the purpose of criticism and propaganda (along the lines of how would you feel about bumping into Danielle in the Women's toilets?).

If you felt that your sense of 'you' was wrong in a society we have today, would you try and fit into how society sees someone that you think you are - so what you see and what society sees matches up.

Amispartacus I can absolutely see that this would be an attractive option and I'm not criticising transwomen for taking this option. I just think that if society did not have these gender-based expectations then people would not feel that certain preferences/behaviours defined their gender.

fascicle Thank you. I hadn't come across Danielle Muscato before. Will do a bit more reading. I am genuinely interested in understanding more about this issue. At the moment I feel very uncertain about my feelings.

I presume you understand that surgery does not happen straightaway. It can take 5 years of waiting, HRT, appointments and assessments. So they may well have a penis because they have been waiting for surgery but HRT has had its effects

I also presume you understand that many transwomen don't wear dresses, frocks etc but just wear clothes that everyday women and try to look like everyday women going about their everyday lives. Jeans and t-shirts are very practical items

This is grossly misleading. 80% of these men don't ever have surgery. For this reason I really object to the phrase transwoman. A high percentage of them also have a personality disorder. If men want to wear women's clothing they should crack on with it. What shouldn't happen is that we have to pretend they are women or have them in our changing rooms.

Miniwookie I was going to mention Danielle Muscato but see fascicle has already done so.

For the sake of clarity I am not claiming that there are no transgender people who have concluded that they are the opposite gender purely because of their affinity with things stereotypically associated with the opposite sex. Maybe there are. I am just suggesting that the common assumption that ALL trans can be explained like this is an unsafe one, and which does not describe the experience as many describe it.

This is grossly misleading. 80% of these men don't ever have surgery. For this reason I really object to the phrase transwoman

What's misleading? You asked about the difference between someone with 'a dick' and a transwoman

Besides, if they've got a dick are they really a trans women? Aren't they a transvestite or a crossdresser? What's the difference

It was pointed out to you that it's very likely that a transwoman (NOT a transvestite / crossdresser) may well have a penis because surgery waiting can take a long time. That's one difference.

There are transwomen who don't have surgery.
There are transvestites.
There are transwoman who have had surgery.
There are transwomen who are on the very long waiting list for surgery.

Only a small percentage of them actually have any surgery. It's not because of waiting times or lack of money, it's because they don't want to. That's what's misleading.

Only a small percentage of them actually have any surgery

You do understand that there are transwomen who still have their penis because they are waiting for surgery - and that's why one of the reasons why someone 'with a dick' (to use your words) may not be a transvestite?

Only a small percentage of them actually have any surgery

And I am unsure about those stats because the UK surgeons who carry out such surgery do seem very busy and have very long waiting lists.

Still, what do I know

Oh - I've had surgery.

Ami I and others are aware that you have had surgery . I'm also aware of others who have also done so who post on these forums .

There is no common consenus between those that have had surgery.

There is no common consenus between those that have had surgery

A consensus that there is a long wait to get surgery.
A consensus that transwomen do have surgery.
A consensus that some transwomen do not have surgery.

What consensus do you think is not common there?

This survey shows that 1/3 of trans people have surgically transitioned.

www.thetaskforce.org/static_html/downloads/reports/reports/ntds_full.pdf

Getting the definitions right is important - but it would be interesting to see if the number of people who attend a GIC are interested in having surgery.

1/3 seems much higher than Only a small percentage of them actually have any surgery.

Getting the definitions right is important

Too right. Shall we start from the beginning?

Too right. Shall we start from the beginning

And you'll agree that when people say that only a small percentage of transwomen have surgery, it's important to define the word 'transwomen' as some people seem to be confusing transwomen with tranvestites and transgender people and transsexuals.

ami You know who I speak of.
There are very few people who choose to take the GRS option. I know you are one of those. I respect your choice.
I would ask you, how you feel in seeing others take your name (transgender) by doing absolutely nothing.

You do understand that there are transwomen who still have their penis because they are waiting for surgery - and that's why one of the reasons why someone 'with a dick' (to use your words) may not be a transvestite?

And you do understand that being allowed into female spaces is something no male, not even transwomen who did have surgery, has a right to?

If, out of the kindness of their hearts, the women in a specific women's space agree to let transwomen without penis use their changing rooms, that does not mean they are now obliged to let any male who says he feels female in.

Same with the clothes. Obviously, women are women regardless of what clothes they wear.

And I am completely opposed to any law tha allows males access to women's spaces if they wear stereotypically feminine clothes.

But if the women in an office wants to let their male colleague who likes to wear dresses and high heels do "her" make up in the women's loo, then that's their right.
It does not mean any male has the right to just walk in there. Because it still is a women's space, and any male is a tolerated visitor there, not someone with any right to access.

ami, always happy to refer to transwomen and would welcome the reference of men not wanting to be men as such (and women not wanting to be women as transmen). Any discussion about who fits into those definitions is none of my business.

First What the fook are you talkling about?!

I'm saying that who fits into the definitions of transwomen and transmen is of no business to me, as a woman. Why would it be? I'm only concerned about women in this context.