To think I have solved the heart of the trans gender identity issue very simply.

[JapaneseTea]

The basic problem with the proposed bill is that it conflates two discrete groups:

People with body dismorphia who want to have surgery and live as the opposite gender.

Men who wish to identify as women but keep their genitalia, and have access as women to women's spaces.

I support fully the first group. I do not support the second group.

How can the needs of the first group be met, without women having to give access to the second group?

Working today so may not reply quickly.

It's not up to me to educate you. Look it up yourself.

Ooh, I think that's a large case of crossed wires. I don't know how to untangle that, so I shall withdraw.

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DXAFcYTwn33A&ved=0ahUKEwiRtvqjzM_SAhVmK8AKHZjLC50QtwIIGjAA&usg=AFQjCNHgUnde4mNMhu06JIGIS07E4MeCIQ" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DXAFcYTwn33A&ved=0ahUKEwiRtvqjzM_SAhVmK8AKHZjLC50QtwIIGjAA&usg=AFQjCNHgUnde4mNMhu06JIGIS07E4MeCIQ

I'm only concerned about women in this context.

I'm surprised by this First because how people fit into those definitions affect all women. I have serious objections to men calling themselves trans expecting to be treated like a woman and accessing female spaces. I seriously object to the expectation that I call a man she or her also, or being expected to provide protection and validation for them.

I posted on another thread that my daughter became friendly with a boy who announced he was a woman. He complained bitterly about his periods ffs .

Oh, I see where I have been misunderstood. I am passionate about women meaning something very real in terms of our biology. How men who don't want to be men decide to label themselves under the trans umbrella is of no concern to me, though. Providing they don't appropriate the word woman, of course. That's already taken.

Providing they don't appropriate the word woman, of course. That's already taken

It is our word, always has been .. WOMEN, HEAR US ROAR!

I posted on another thread that my daughter became friendly with a boy who announced he was a woman. He complained bitterly about his periods ffs .

What period?

amispartacus

If you felt that your sense of 'you' was wrong in a society we have today, would you try and fit into how society sees someone that you think you are - so what you see and what society sees matches up.

Have you paid any attention to how society sees women? Have you paid any attention to how that has changed over the last 40 years or so? I don't know a single woman who comfortably fits into how society sees her.

No I will not 'match up', I will continue to be gender non-conforming. I will also continue to be a woman because I have no choice in that, it's just what I am.

I'm always surprised on threads like this how many transpeople people have met considering there aren't that many trans people. I've never met any who I am aware of through normal social and work life.

I suppose it depends where you live and what circles you move in. I've lived in a big city for over 20 years and I work in the third sector, at a quick count I know about 15 trans people and have had relationships with 2 (one of whom did not identify as trans until after we split up). One of my work supervisors is trans. I'm quite surprised you haven't met any other trans people in normal daily life but you speak with such authority.

This survey shows that 1/3 of trans people have surgically transitioned.

So the majority of transwomen have a penis.

BTW, you have posted a link to a report from The National Center for Transgender Equality who are making a total mockery of the SEX BASED PROTECTION for women and girls provided by Title IX in the US.

Do you not think that's a bit shit?

it's important to define the word 'transwomen' as some people seem to be confusing transwomen with tranvestites and transgender people and transsexuals.

Not sure what the difference is between transwomen and transsexual women. If you want to distance yourself from transvestites, autogynephiles, sissy fetishists, trendy queer SJWs and assorted others you need to tell them not us. Right now transactivists have decided to include you under the same big lovely inclusive trans umbrella. If they don't speak for you, tell them.

I am so fucked off with this being women's problem. Sort yourselves out. Do what you need to do to muddle through but stop crapping on women and children.

If you felt that your sense of 'you' was wrong in a society we have today, would you try and fit into how society sees someone that you think you are - so what you see and what society sees matches up.

I actually do feel like that. It's not for me to change so I can fit in with a fucked up society with fucked up expectations. It's for society to change.

I actually do feel like that. It's not for me to change so I can fit in with a fucked up society with fucked up expectations. It's for society to change.

Indeed.

I get the impression that, in some cases, transgenderism and feminism are two different solutions for the same problem.

Feminism still has not achieved all of its goals, but no woman who disguised as man ever solved the underlying problem with society for anyone but herself.

No, I am saying that gender identity does not equal and only equal societal gender stereotypes. People can have an internal sense that they are a man or a woman yet buck all of the classics such as football and pink.

But that's what gender is - sex role stereotypes.

I don't understand an innate sense of being a woman, to me I am a person firstly and the woman bit is purely about the biology - periods and pregnancy and hormones (& then how I am treated because of that).

If gender identity were only about an innate sense then I could not say that I was a woman.

jellyfrizz, fair enough, but I have an internal sense of being a man which I believer would persist even if a mad scientist bodywapped me into a female (yes, yes, will never happen outside the movies). Nothing to do with gender stereotypes.

Once again, all I am saying is that it is an unsafe assumption to assume that any sense of being a man or a woman = societal gender stereotypes. And therefore to be or support trans is ipso facto to support those stereotypes.

I asked a bunch of friends about this 'internal sense' of sex last night. Everyone of them (both male and female) do not have a sense of man/woman...like me, they just feel like themselves....its quite odd really.

I asked a bunch of friends about this 'internal sense' of sex last night. Everyone of them (both male and female) do not have a sense of man/woman...like me, they just feel like themselves....its quite odd really.

Me too. No one I know has an "internal sense" of ... wait, that one idiot guy who said he disapproved of people roleplaying the opposite sex in D&D, not because men do not know what women feel like (such games often have equality of the sexes in their fantasy world because otherwise it would be no fun at all) but because ... well, he gave no reason, but perhaps because of gender identity. He was a sexist asshole, so probably was very invested in his internal sense of maleness.

fair enough, but I have an internal sense of being a man

So, not a feeling of 'not being a woman' but a feeling of being a man?

But how do you know what being a man feels like? Especially if that is not related to any stereotypes (i.e. what we think of as being a man)?

And what would being a man mean for you then if it is not to do with body dysphoria or sex role stereotypes?

Lots of personal questions I know, sorry, I'm not trying to catch you out, I'm genuinely trying to get my head around this. Thanks for engaging so far.

People keep saying that they do not have an internal 'sense of' sex, and because of that, that the argument put forward by transexuals is not valid. But just because you cannot identify that 'sense' does not mean that other people might feel different.

I guess most people would find it very difficult to explain what is the sense of their 'my own body' (proprioception), you simply feel 'you' and logically assume that your body is yours.
That does not mean that in some neurological conditions people feel that their own body is not 'theirs'.

Just a thought

Its not even that I feel this body is mine tbh. Its just a body. I would still be me with another body :S

But just because you cannot identify that 'sense' does not mean that other people might feel different.

I don't think anyone has denied that other people may have those feelings.

I thought the argument is that male and female (and therefore man and woman) are purely biological states that have nothing to do with feelings.

I have an internal sense of being a man

In this sentence I suspect several of the words are so devoid of meaning as to render the entire sentence meaningless.

I have a sense of being a

If you define man - and I know that you do not accept 'adult human male' as a definition we can begin to attempt to understand you.

Otherwise it's just white noise.

I thought the argument is that male and female (and therefore man and woman) are purely biological states that have nothing to do with feelings.

Bingo. not denying transpeoples 'feelings'. Not denying trans people exist. Nothing like that.

Interesting thread.

I've not really thought about it before but I agree - I don't really know how to define female. It's all a spectrum right, some women are at the very traditionally feminine end and some are at the traditionally male end. Same with men. At what point does one become trans?

I like asian food, asian culture etc. Doesn't mean I identify as asian. I'm still white and that's never going to change. But I'm on the yellower end of the internal race spectrum (if there is such a thing haha). Race is less complicated though because there aren't places I can't go because I'm white. Although it would be strange for a white person to muscle in on another culture without an invitation I guess...

There are so many posts in this thread that make my heart ache.

If you identify as a woman, you're a woman. That doesn't water down the definition of a woman or anything. Good god, people.

No 'internal sense' here. I identify as a woman, because I was born with XX chromosomes and a vagina.

If you can't define it, how can you identify as it?

It's nonsense - babble.

JonHammAndCheese
What id the definition of 'woman' that people are choosing to identify with

JAPAB I have an internal sense of being a man which I believer would persist even if a mad scientist bodywapped me into a female

I'm another who doesn't have this internal sense. But, let's go with it, and say for a lot of people it is a thing, this internal sense of male/female.

It is a completely different thing to the objective biological sex of our bodies. It must be, if someone with a male body can "feel" female inside.

So... it shouldn't be called "female" or "woman" or any of the other words used to describe those with female bodies. It's a completely different thing we're talking about.

So why not have new words to describe this internal sense, rather than hijacking words already in use? Rather than insisting everyone else must have this internal sense, which just so happens to fit in nicely with societies expectations... In fact, thinking it through logically, is sooo obvious a man came up with this idea. The complete ignorance of the fact that women don't actually identify with their position in society, don't innately want to serve men, etc, etc!!