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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think I have solved the heart of the trans gender identity issue very simply.

272 replies

JapaneseTea · 10/03/2017 10:08

The basic problem with the proposed bill is that it conflates two discrete groups:

People with body dismorphia who want to have surgery and live as the opposite gender.

Men who wish to identify as women but keep their genitalia, and have access as women to women's spaces.

I support fully the first group. I do not support the second group.

How can the needs of the first group be met, without women having to give access to the second group?

Working today so may not reply quickly.

OP posts:
augustbody · 10/03/2017 22:25

Why don't we just educate men not to attack anyone in the loos, women or transwomen?

kua · 10/03/2017 23:05

Why don't we just educate men not to attack anyone in the loos, women or transwomen

I will obviously educate my children but personally don't have much sway with the rest of the male population.

This is where men need to step in and sort their own shit out

jellyfrizz · 10/03/2017 23:48

I suppose it is a bit like how getting rid of racial or ethnic stereotypes won't stop races and ethnicities.

No. If there were no sex role stereotypes (gender) then you would only be 'trans' in a body dysphoric sense.
You've confused gender and sex; to make your metaphor with race work you would need to say getting rid of sex role stereotypes would not get rid of biological sex. I agree.

KindDogsTail · 10/03/2017 23:57

toomanytolist
I absolutely agree that no one should automatically go down the surgical/hormone route, certainly not before they are grown up; and they should be able to explore options and feel free to change their minds. It would be awful if surgery and hormones at a young age become the norm.

BBCNewsRave · 11/03/2017 00:02

amispartacus How would those men know that the transwomen are not women in the toilets but transwomen?

Well, because they appear to be women but are in the men's?

You appear to be suggesting that if it's a woman it would be ok to attack her! They shouldn't attack anyone.

Anyway all this is trans priviledge speaking - transwomen get to decide to present as female, with all the danger that entails, where as us biological females are recognised as female whether we choose it or not.

Klaphat · 11/03/2017 00:43

The insinuation that it would only be entirely natural and unremarkable for a man to attack a woman in the men's toilets is really something special.

Oddsockspissmeoff · 11/03/2017 01:21

But I forget - transwomen can easily be recognised as 'chicks with dicks in frocks masturbating' so they must be a dead give away to men and women...

You're probably being sarcastic but actually you're spot on. They are easily recognizable as men. Everyone knows they're not women but they politely play along. I personally object to having to cater to a man's delusions. Besides, if they've got a dick are they really a trans women? Aren't they a transvestite or a crossdresser? What's the difference?

JAPAB · 11/03/2017 01:31

jellyfrizz No. If there were no sex role stereotypes (gender) then you would only be 'trans' in a body dysphoric sense.

That only follows if you agree that gender identity = sex role stereotypes. That there is no other sense of being a man or a woman that one can have that is not either "I have an XX chromosome therefore I am a woman" or "I like blue and football therefore I am a man". Though it appears that we agree tnat getting rid of the social stereotypes would not see the end of all things trans.

You've confused gender and sex; to make your metaphor with race work you would need to say getting rid of sex role stereotypes would not get rid of biological sex. I agree.

True, though What about ethniticity? Also even without gender there would still be stereotypes about people with XX or XY chromosomes. Just as there are racial stereotypes.

AmeliaLeopard · 11/03/2017 01:56

I have realised I am very confused. I wanted a separation between "genuine" trans women and those ne'er do well's seeking access to women's spaces for nefarious reasons. I have no problem with the first group and serious problems with the second. It turns out there is a separation - the gender recognition certificate. What is so bad about the GRC? (Apologies if I being ignorant.)

Oddsockspissmeoff · 11/03/2017 04:55

Men do and will lie about their motivation for wanting to dress like a woman or "become" a woman. They know full well that women will question why a male crossdresser or transvestite wants to be in their space. Instead we've been sold the story that somehow trans are poor women trapped in men's bodies and we should feel sorry for them because they're one of the girls. We should let them into our toilets because they're scared of the men's. They're not women . And they never will be. We've been conned into playing along.

I cannot see a way to differentiate between those that have a sexual fetish and those that do not. I don't think it's worth the risk. Men's concerns about where they should piss, or their concerns about male violence in toilets shouldn't be dumped in our lap.

autogynephiliatruth.wordpress.com/2015/04/27/what-many-transgender-activists-dont-want-you-to-know-and-why-you-should-know-it-anyway/

transgenderreality.com/tag/masturbation/

outofmypantiesnow.wordpress.com/2013/10/28/when-is-90-not-substantially-all/

jellyfrizz · 11/03/2017 07:17

That only follows if you agree that gender identity = sex role stereotypes. That there is no other sense of being a man or a woman that one can have that is not either "I have an XX chromosome therefore I am a woman" or "I like blue and football therefore I am a man".

Let me check that I am understanding what you are saying; you think that there is some sense of being a biological sex (man or woman) that is not based on how you present (sex role stereotypes) or how your body functions (sex)?

jellyfrizz · 11/03/2017 07:27

You are saying that your gender identity has nothing to do with gender?

amispartacus · 11/03/2017 07:56

You appear to be suggesting that if it's a woman it would be ok to attack her! They shouldn't attack anyone.

If that's what you think I am suggesting, then I think you are deliberately misinterpreting what I said.

It's not ok to attack anyone.

Besides, if they've got a dick are they really a trans women? Aren't they a transvestite or a crossdresser? What's the difference

I presume you understand that surgery does not happen straightaway. It can take 5 years of waiting, HRT, appointments and assessments. So they may well have a penis because they have been waiting for surgery but HRT has had its effects.

I also presume you understand that many transwomen don't wear dresses, frocks etc but just wear clothes that everyday women and try to look like everyday women going about their everyday lives. Jeans and t-shirts are very practical items.

VestalVirgin · 11/03/2017 11:27

I have realised I am very confused. I wanted a separation between "genuine" trans women and those ne'er do well's seeking access to women's spaces for nefarious reasons. I have no problem with the first group and serious problems with the second. It turns out there is a separation - the gender recognition certificate. What is so bad about the GRC? (Apologies if I being ignorant.)

Because this certificate is issued to males who do not have surgery (and some people on here have been complaining about such a condition "forcing" males to have surgery) and whoever gives out the certificate is at as much risk at being told utter bullshit and believing it as the general population. Because "gender" is nothing provable. You would probably have better success trying to find out who is a genuine Christian by doing brainscans!

Of course, a male who had his penis and testicles removed is still not female, but he could not commit rape (according to UK law) and if he committed sexual assault one can hope people would be a bit more ready to believe the victim that she did not want a random object inserted into her vagina than people are after a rape with a penis.

A male who had his penis and testicles removed would also not be able to show his penis to girls in the women's changing rooms at a pool.

So, all in all, surgery as a condition to being recognized as female by the law (except in sports, because male muscle and bone structure is male muscle and bone structure, no surgery can change that) would be somewhat tolerable.

GRC is just a requirement for a male to have worn dresses and makeup for a while, or whatever the person deciding thinks "transitioning" means - it explicitly does not require surgery.

Male sex offenders are happy to wear dresses to get access to vulnerable women. Some even especially enjoy it, but I do not doubt that even some of those who do not would do it to get access to vulnerable women - especially those who are in prison and have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Changing that to every male getting to decide for himself whether he feels like a woman that day makes things worse, of course. But GRC is not much better.

I focus on males here, because only the very rare FtT who is still a teenager and does not know how the real world works would ever be as stupid as to want access to men's changing rooms and toilets, let alone men's prisons and mental health wards.

There are some FtT who are really surprised men rape them, by penetrating their vaginas, without asking what their gender identity is. But those are rare.
Most female humans know that male humans like to rape us, and that any genderfeelz WE have or claim to have, will not stop them from doing so.

FtT only want to use the men's bathrooms if they pass as male, and can be sure to be treated as male, i.e. not sexually assaulted or raped by males outside prison. They need no extra laws for that. (And since males regularly rape other males in prison, I am sure no significant number of FtT wants to be imprisoned in men's prisons)

JAPAB · 11/03/2017 12:10

You are saying that your gender identity has nothing to do with gender?

No, I am saying that gender identity does not equal and only equal societal gender stereotypes. People can have an internal sense that they are a man or a woman yet buck all of the classics such as football and pink.

grannytomine · 11/03/2017 12:22

FrancisCrawford, you don't seem to get it. I was clearly told that it doesn't matter what ethnicity someone is you have to accept what they say they are. If someone who was standing in front of me was say a black man with Nigerian nationality, his parents were black Nigerians (I did work with this man and met his family) and I knew this and he said he was white European that was what had to go on the form as you have to accept what people identify as. He did it as a joke, he thought it was hilarious but that doesn't change the point that people can self identify as another colour/ethnicity and you have to accept it.

FrancisCrawford · 11/03/2017 12:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

grannytomine · 11/03/2017 12:29

You're probably being sarcastic but actually you're spot on. They are easily recognizable as men. That isn't always true. When I worked on the Vice Squad a well known prank with new officers was to send them into a cell to do a body search on a prostitute, everyone would then wait for the scream when the female officer found something she wasn't expecting. I used to tip off new officers if I had a chance as I didn't think it was very funny but police officers can have a strange sense of humour. Might be different in the 21st Century, this was back in Life on Mars era.

I remember one guy who was caught in the act with a prostitute who was biologically male. He couldn't stop throwing up when he found out, he thought he was with a woman. That particular prostitute wasn't easily recognizable as a man, I don't know anyone, police or punter, who realised.

grannytomine · 11/03/2017 12:31

Francis you don't get it, this guy knew his ethnicity but if he said he was white British that had to be accepted. He definitely knew his ethnicity. Just like my kids know they are mixed race but will tick the box as white/black/mixed race as the mood takes them.

FrancisCrawford · 11/03/2017 12:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

IamAporcupine · 11/03/2017 12:54

Sorry Francis I really do not get your point, could you clarify it instead of repeating over and over that granny does not get it?

JAPAB · 11/03/2017 12:58

you can tell a persons ethnic background by looking at them

You might be able to make an educated guess in many cases, but ultimately this can be wrong. Same with many other internal ID things, such as sexuality, religion, whether someone IDs as a man or a woman. Someone tells you and you either believe them or you don't.

grannytomine · 11/03/2017 13:29

IAmAPorcupine it doesn't suit her agenda that people can self identify as black/white/mixedrace/whatever. It isn't convenient as if you can self identify as white when you are clearly black why can't you identify as a woman even if people can tell you aren't (actually you can't tell someone's sex by looking at them but that isn't convenient either.)

FrancisCrawford · 11/03/2017 13:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FrancisCrawford · 11/03/2017 13:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.