To think I have solved the heart of the trans gender identity issue very simply.

[JapaneseTea]

The basic problem with the proposed bill is that it conflates two discrete groups:

People with body dismorphia who want to have surgery and live as the opposite gender.

Men who wish to identify as women but keep their genitalia, and have access as women to women's spaces.

I support fully the first group. I do not support the second group.

How can the needs of the first group be met, without women having to give access to the second group?

Working today so may not reply quickly.

Agreed but once someone has transitioned i.e. Removed the penis or added one, then access to women's spaces should be allowed.

Why? They can use the unisex areas. The unisex areas will be used by actual women whom it suits at that moment, too, so it won't even out anyone.

(There are so many women here who have declared they are fine sharing even changing rooms and showers with fully intact males with penises, so I am sure, those will be in the unisex areas to protect the transwomen there from male violence and being outed.)

Men should be educated to be tolerant of men in dresses/make-up being part of the spectrum of 'man' and share their 'male' spaces with them. The law already is there to protect people from being assaulted.

I think people need to stop naval gazing and obsessing over whats between their legs tbh.

Support those with real gender issues - fine.

Weed out the pervs who.stick on a wig and use it as an excuse to loiter round women's loo's and rape. Also fine.

Just stop making a bloody thing of it, it's becoming a massive trend now and just something else for more vulnerable people to obsess over and worry about.

I suspect part of the issue is that you're not allowed to ask what physical steps someone's taken to transition (and from a transperson's perspective I can see why). But this means we don't and can't know which transwomen are male-bodied and male-hormoned, and which are not. As I understand it, in countries where 'gender identity' is entirely self-reported and doesn't depend on the individual having made any changes to their bodies, a male-bodied person will be recognised as a woman in the eyes of the law unquestioningly, provided he declares himself a woman - and therefore he cannot legally be denied access to women's shelters, domestic violence refuges for women, scholarships for women, etc. This may be unlikely to happen a great deal in practice, but could become entirely legally possible. And things are taking an alarming political and ideological turn around the world at the moment; I don't think we can naively believe that common sense and decency will prevail when women's reproductive rights are under threat in the US, Russia has decriminalised domestic violence, etc.

As far as I'm aware, I know 3 trans people (2 mtf and 1 ftm), and all they seem to want is to get on with their largely mundane lives, like anyone else, without any fuss. I believe everyone is entitled to go about daily life without harassment or fear. I don't have an issue with unisex toilets & changing spaces.

The issue to my mind is with legislature that's open to abuse by people who are not trans, and who have sinister motives for wanting access to spaces preserved for vulnerable women. It's kind of like tax evasion - the majority of people are going to do the decent thing and pay their taxes and not exploit weaknesses in the system. But if there's a highly publicised loophole that will give people benefits they haven't had before, it will inevitably attract the attention of people who want to exploit it, as well as those it's intended to protect, and there needs to be something in place to prevent that happening.

It's the job of lawmakers to find a way to ensure that trans rights are respected, without eroding women's rights to safety and equality of opportunity. It's definitely a difficult job. But it needs to be thought about, rather than just opening every protected space and opportunity for women up to anyone who is prepared (for whatever reason) to claim to be a woman.

I don't think it's up to you to dictate that someone must have gender reassignment surgery to really be trans. Bodily autonomy is actually quite important.

Agreed but it is up to me not to want to share a women's sauna with a woman that has a penis.

Agreed that we should be pushing for society to accept transpeople. Unisex loos changing rooms. But not women's refuges and nhs wards and women only gyms.

The reason we can't be chilled about it is that there is a private member's bill which will change the law so a woman is anyone who decides they are. So the rapists and pervs can decide they are women and have access.

Why are our rights eroded as the first option, rather than change society to include more gender options for people?

What BarbaraofSeville said. Maybe if society weren't still telling us how we have to look, dress or behave in order to be a woman or be a man, gender dysphoria and/or the desire to transition would be much much rarer. Surely we should be aiming for that, rather than creating yet more rules about who qualifies as what sex/gender?

Agree with so many comments! The trans agenda should be to increase gender fluidity in our society and widen perceptions. That is a grand aim that would benefit all of us.

But woman should legally be defined as 'having a vagina'

Ack, no, sorry, I didn't at all mean that anyone had to do anything physically to their bodies to be trans. Body autonomy is of course important. What I worry about is a legal situation in which someone doesn't actually need to be a transwoman in order to be treated legally as a woman, because identification is just on their say-so. I think a legal situation like that would end up generating, if anything, more transphobia, because the people the legislation was intended to protect will be lumped in with the people who exploit it.

I.e., it's a legal minefield. I think the tricky thing about saying 'but assault and rape are illegal, so if women with penises rape women in women's refuges, that's a crime and they'll be prosecuted' is that it's basically taking away all the protections a place like a refuge is meant to offer.

I know it's a bit old fashioned but I think that radical feminism offered the solution to this issue. Back in the day, radical feminist used to reject biological determinism, the idea that our lives are determined by our sex or biology, if we went back to that, ther would be no problem with trans people, no one would be getting upset about biology.

Has anyone ever considered feminism as a solution?

The same could be said of many issues

My point is, is this actually an issue rather than it would be a problem if it existed.

This trans disagreement, in the way in which its argued, reminds me of the way that racists argue their position, i.e they find someone of a colour they don't like who has behaved badly and extrapolate that behaviour to every member of the badly behaved person race and then attempt to deny people of that race the same rights as people of their own race.

Someone up thread has already claimed that women are being raped by trans women in other countries, I just wondered if there were actual examples of this and, if there are, would it mean that all trans women should be excluded because of it? I know most liberals would have a problem with 'that Muslim is a bomber, so will will treat all Muslims like bombers' logic and, hopefully, would have a problem with apply that false logic to any other situation.

The trans issue isn't ours to solve. It's for trans people to campaign for what they need.

It's womens job to fight for female boundaries. We don't need to fix their issues to solve ours, that's just our gendered socialisation coming into play. We hold firm our boundaries, female safe spaces, female factual language, female experience. Don't make it more complicated, we just need to fight for us.

Remember that "feminism" is now also being redefined by some, so that it is included in the insult "TERF"

Francis, handsome is as handsome does. I've seen a fair few women describe themselves as 'feminists' here on MN who have no interest in any aspect of feminism that doesn't include transwoman.

For instance, there was a 30 odd page long thread on make up/judging women by how they present themselves the other day and not a single feminist comment on it but any mention of trans people and the troops arrive. I find that really odd.

We don't need to fix their issues to solve ours, that's just our gendered socialisation coming into play. We hold firm our boundaries, female safe spaces, female factual language, female experience. Don't make it more complicated, we just need to fight for us.

I have no problem at all with you stating and arguing your own position but it annoys me when anyone claims to be fighting the 'female' position and claiming things like 'firm boundaries'. I would fight to the death for you to be able to state your position but don't claim to speak for all women, you don't speak for me.

I've got a set of ovaries but they don't define me or the way I think, feminism taught me that.

I'm an old unreconstructed feminist then!

Join the club!

Firm boundaries with regards to female spaces is really very simple and self explainatory

Why do we have to wait until something happens before it is recognised as a problem?

Because when we judge people on what they might do or what we assume they are going to do, that's prejudice. I'm all for punishing individuals for their actions but to punishing a whole group for what we fear they might do, or even what some of them do, we fly in the face of liberal justice.

I'm an old unreconstructed feminist then!

No, not if you think that your womb defines you anyone else. That's not feminist, that the patriarchy talking.

It has happened elsewhere though

Mtt in female prisions in America masterbating in front of female inmates who are igored when they complain. A man in Canada who accessed a woman's refuge claiming to be trans to attack his ex, plenty of examples within sport where women are either badly hurt by Mtt or who have no chance ever winning because several mtt have unfair advantage. And plenty of research to indicate that mtt commit violent crimes at the same rates men do.

Links are on the other thread on this.

SilentlyScreamingAgain

This trans disagreement, in the way in which its argued, reminds me of the way that racists argue their position, i.e they find someone of a colour they don't like who has behaved badly and extrapolate that behaviour to every member of the badly behaved person race and then attempt to deny people of that race the same rights as people of their own race.
Dont compare feminists defending themselves to racists attacking others.

Someone up thread has already claimed that women are being raped by trans women in other countries, I just wondered if there were actual examples of this
There are examples of this in every country, even the UK.

This multiple rapist identifies as a trans person with a penis.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/woman-rape-man-twice-charge-newcastle-crown-court-southshields-katie-brannen-sexual-assault-victim-a7617361.html

This multiple rapist identifies as a trans person with a penis.
www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/seen-missing-woman-dressed-man-seen-derbyshire/story-29207361-detail/story.html

The problem is not so much genuine Trans people, it is predators who can self identify as trans to get access to women and other victims.

Firm boundaries with regards to female spaces is really very simple and self explainatory

I understand firm boundaries perfectly well, one of mine is asking you not to claim to speak for me.