To think I have solved the heart of the trans gender identity issue very simply.

[JapaneseTea]

The basic problem with the proposed bill is that it conflates two discrete groups:

People with body dismorphia who want to have surgery and live as the opposite gender.

Men who wish to identify as women but keep their genitalia, and have access as women to women's spaces.

I support fully the first group. I do not support the second group.

How can the needs of the first group be met, without women having to give access to the second group?

Working today so may not reply quickly.

Any. Idea. How. Offensive. That. Is?

Can these threads sink any lower?

Watch this space.

But women? Tsh. We don't matter.

Exactly. What is creepy is that some women, even, gladly throw other women under the bus. Force women in prison to shower with males, put women in shelters and in mental health wards at risk of rape by males, just so they can feel all warm and fuzzy about being supportive of (male) trans.

One assumes they have their private swimming pools and are so privileged they can be sure to not ever need to access healthcare for the general public. Or protection from domestic violence.

It is disgusting, really. No solidarity at all.

A poster on this thread just equated being trans with blacking up

You , or at the very least one of you womanface apologists, equated not wanting males in our spaces with racism.

Eat your own damn cookie.

Your attitude is disgusting. You have no compassion at all for women.

Intersex conditions have nothing to do with the issue being discussed here. Intersex condition are rare and people with those conditions do not wish to be associated with the trans agenda- which is specifically about men identifying as female. Whether or not MTTs have taken hormones or had surgery or dressed like women for years- they are still male. Women who've had hysterectomies are still women, along with women who have had any other procedure for medical or cosmetic reasons- they are still biologically female.

Francis Surely a hysterectomy doesn't remove your vagina?

The first poster to mention body parts wrote that it should depend on whether a transwoman has had their penis removed, as if male/female is simpy about penis/no penis. Removing a man's penis doesn't make him a woman, so I can understand wanting a definition that focuses on what actually defines a woman, rather than being a "non-man".

The fact that women can have no womb, ovaries, whatever, doesn't prevent the overall definition of woman involving those things. "Woman" is "of the sex that bears young/has a womb/produces eggs/.... etc", even if for some medical reason a particular individual doesn't have all these things.

You're right that the "has" is more problematic that "is of the sex that has..."
FFS, it is batshit insane that we are having to spell out to brainwashed people that there are fundamental biological differences between men and women! Goodness knows how we've survived as a species if it's all so terribly vague and confusing...

Claiming to be a woman when you are not (in some cases claiming to be 'more of a woman then you will ever be' is EXACTLY the same as blacking up. It is misappropriating women's experience and their oppression just as blacking up misappropriates black experience and oppression. But- well, we are just women so that's all right- its ok to rename us 'cis', say that 'pregnant persons' bear life, that we 'chest feed' our children, that we don't know what suffering is, that we are priveliged, that we have penises, that the lesbian among us should have sex with them. That's all ok?

Female DNA cannot be recoded

I think this is the ideal time to post this link. Transgender crime - decide for yourself

I think that many oppressed groups, who aren't exclusively female, have found the language to describe and challenge their oppression, the gays, the disabled, the non-whites are all doing a grand job.

Exactly. It is easy to talk about the issues facing homosexual men or black women that are distinct from those facing men or women in general, or homosexuals or black people in general, if need be.

Same goes for the specific issues facing the women and men with an XX-chromosome that are different from those facing other subsets of humans.

Lliberal feminists who willingly throw their sisters under the Transphobic bus obviously don't know any MTTs. Try going out on the gay scene in Brighton- all toilets are now unisex and you have to walk past men pissing at the urinals to access a cubicle. The main lesbian bar is totally taken over by men in dresses. Men walk at the head of the Reclaim the Night march (which is about women protesting against male violence to women and children.

I cannot understand women who think its ok to be erased in this way- what the fuck is wrong with them?

MTT's who claim to be women have a profound disrespect for women. You have to be with them to experience it. All that male entitlement is fully intact plus they hate real women as they cannot have what we have got (but they wont stop trying)

If you refuse to accept a broad definition that cover at least (by your own figures) 99% of women then how on earth can there be an accepted meaningful definition of what woman means?

Thank you! You have asked and answered your own question. There the only way your defintion works is if you ignore/demonise/oppress the 1%.

The problem would be solved by challenging gender stereotypes instead of reinforcing them.

I know a lot of people think that all transpeople are only trans because they discovered that they like things or act in ways that are stereotypically the other gender's domain, but surely that is rather simplistic and there are transpeople themselves who would say that this does not describe their experience.

Basically there are no guarantees that challenging notions that girls like pink and boys like football will end all trans as that is all it is.

What is so threatening about a tiny minority of people suffering gender dysmorphia?
They are oppressed just as women have been and just as other minorities have been.
Blimey if some women can't cope with the idea of a person with extra facial hair/different genitals/more physical strength/more confidence than they have then we really are in trouble.
I have a friend who can out argue and out arm wrestle me - maybe I should ban her from the house!

Being trans has become trendy and the thing to do which is causing issues for those who truly deep down believe they are the wrong sex.

However no amount of drugs/wigs/make up/operations will ever change the biological sex you are. It's a mental health issue and should be treated as such it shouldn't be pandered to in the sense of letting the few trample over others long fought for rights.

We wouldn't tell a depressed person to just go kill themselfs or cut of the limbs of people who believe they should be disabled yet his one group is being told everything in their heads are true and to disagree is phobic. So many children are being pushed into trans rather than just being a child who doesn't conform to traditional views they are the children being hurt by this children who just want to be them and who they want to be they don't need drugs pushed on them and children who do conform don't need their further rights erased by yet again the male of the species showing his superior place in the world yet again.

joystir59 MTT's who claim to be women have a profound disrespect for women. You have to be with them to experience it. All that male entitlement is fully intact plus they hate real women as they cannot have what we have got (but they wont stop trying)

That might be true of some, but a bit prejudiced to assume it of all of them?

JAPAB
Absolutely. Gender is not about superficial preferences (as pointed out up thread). Its about a sense of who you are and no one else can dictate that.
It strikes me that many posters desperately want things to be simple and life to be clear cut but its not.
Uncertainty and ambiguity are some of the biggest challenges that we face as people.

Being trans has become trendy
Ouch. There's also an increase in self harm and diagnoses of mental illness care to suggest that they are trendy too?
What a terrible and horrible thing to say about a condition that often ends up in suicide, self harm and mental illness.
😳

So many children are being pushed into trans rather than just being a child Evidence please?
NB: a Daily Mail Schlock story about one child does not count. Just so we're clear.

BTW people seem to be obsessed with male to female trans.

Point of fact I know only one trans person. They were identified as female at birth. 😀

It is only one case. It is anecdotal but it illustrates the point that this is not just about male to female trans.

It was a documentary on TV that I watched. The percentage of children who are originally cited as trans by their parents and professionals who are actually trans when they become adults is very small. In fact they had a trans person who deeply regretted being trans and wished they had never of been allowed to transition with drugs and surgery at such a young age.

Iris Why should society dictate whether or not a person has radical, potentially life threatening surgery and give up the opportunity to have children?

Society wouldn't be forcing them to. They would be freely opting into it, in return for being considered "female" despite still not actually being so.

Alternatively they could just enjoy whatever it is they want that they think is feminine (clothes, hobbies, etc) whilst being applauded by us TERFs for breaking down the gender binary.

Would you also advocate preventing women with an abnormally large clitoris and/or lesbians and bisexuals from accessing women's spaces? ...
How about women who look masculine in general?

Obviously not, because they are women. I think you might need to take a biology class.

As for:

How about women convicted of assault?
How about women who appear threatening to other women?

In these case the spaces are further segregated, and in certain circumstances some women are not welcome.

But these are sex-segregated spaces to address the massive problem of male-on-female violence (as well as pregnancy in certain circumstances eg. prisons.)

What about those with chromosomal abnormalities and physical abnormalities such as XXY, XXX, XO, XYY which occur in between 1in 500 and 1 in 5000 live births. This doesn't include those born with absent or atypical reproductive tracts and organs. I don't have the figures for those groups but its easy to find.

The existence of intersex people is not a valid arguemnt for why someone who is not intersex can pretend to be the opposite sex.

Are you seriously going to leave them without a gender because it doesn't fit your nice binary categories?

Gender is bullshit. Would be marvellous if none of us had a gender, and weren't forced into restrictive gender roles. I, and many others here, wholeheartedy reject the binary categories of gender, so not sure what you're talking about there! Think you might be geting confused with biological sex, where we have 99%+ male or female, and circa 1% intersex.

Such a shame when a nice simple argument is spoilt by facts.

Quite.