To think I have solved the heart of the trans gender identity issue very simply.

[JapaneseTea]

The basic problem with the proposed bill is that it conflates two discrete groups:

People with body dismorphia who want to have surgery and live as the opposite gender.

Men who wish to identify as women but keep their genitalia, and have access as women to women's spaces.

I support fully the first group. I do not support the second group.

How can the needs of the first group be met, without women having to give access to the second group?

Working today so may not reply quickly.

you are right of course, not all men are rapists and abusers yet we STILL exclude all men from certain places (DV refuges)- the problem is not that we are prejudiced against all transwomen because of the behaviour of a few, but simply that they don't belong to the category 'women' and therefore should not be in those safe places. They may well be at risk of rape and DV, and I would support their efforts to organise, fund and run THEIR OWN safe places. Maybe men would even help them with that.

The problem is not so much genuine Trans people, it is predators who can self identify as trans to get access to women and other victims.

Quite, so why make this into a trans issue? Sexual violence against women and girls is a massive issue but here on MN it's almost never alluded to as a problem unless trans women can be involved in some way.

The vast majority of sex offenders are straight and male but that seems to be almost wilfully ignored. I don't understand why that happens here. Any ideas?

Barbaraofseville exactly!

That's exactly what I feel.

How does a man know that they feel like a woman. I don't know and I am one. I only know what it's like to be me.

Please can we get organised or I'm going to burst.

Quite, so why make this into a trans issue? Sexual violence against women and girls is a massive issue but here on MN it's almost never alluded to as a problem unless trans women can be involved in some way.

The vast majority of sex offenders are straight and male but that seems to be almost wilfully ignored. I don't understand why that happens here. Any ideas?

Are you quite sure it's Mumsnet you've been on all this time?

Perhaps because if we lose the ability to define what is meant by the word "woman" we will lose all ability to even form sentences to describe the oppression which takes place.

Are you quite sure it's Mumsnet you've been on all this time?

Very much. Access as it concerns trans women the subject of 5 current threads, sexual violence by straight men, no threads.

Why do we have to wait until something happens before it is recognised as a problem?

The horrible truth is: Something has already happened. Plenty of males molesting women in the showers and changing rooms of a women's prison in the US.

People still don't recognise the problem.

The problem would be solved by challenging gender stereotypes instead of reinforcing them. If it were genuinely socially acceptable for both males and females to wear make-up or not; have any kind of hair cut; wear any clothes they choose, shirts, trousers, skirts, dresses, whatever; to be friends with and to love whomever they want; to choose any sport, hobby, occupation that interests them, without being made to feel they are stepping outside the norm for their sex, then males wearing dresses and makeup wouldn't be 'presenting' as female. They would just be being their version of male and could use the toilets/changing rooms with other males.

Very much. Access as it concerns trans women the subject of 5 current threads, sexual violence by straight men, no threads.

If you were remotely interested in feminism, you would have seen the feminist boards, and there are plenty threads about male violence.

Please just go away and stop taking up space here. You obviously have no interest in women's rights, or you would not be so ignorant.

Perhaps because if we lose the ability to define what is meant by the word "woman" we will lose all ability to even form sentences

I think that many oppressed groups, who aren't exclusively female, have found the language to describe and challenge their oppression, the gays, the disabled, the non-whites are all doing a grand job.

Please just go away and stop taking up space here. You obviously have no interest in women's rights, or you would not be so ignorant.

I've said before that people with your views about trans folks will be coming after other groups next. You believe that anyone who disagrees with you 'shouldn't be taking up space', that's a fairly dangerous position.

Would you be willing to talk about why you're not comfortable having your views challenged?

I didn't speak for you. I voice what I think all females need to do. Rather than any of us fixing the trans problem.

That's my opinion, not speaking for you.

You asked that I should make my position clear on 'female boundaries' I pointed out its self explanatory when the issue is female safe places.

I suggest that we ignore Silently, it is waste of time and space to talk to someone who refuses to listen.

Oppression against women is because we are female, we need to retain the factual language we already have to describe our female oppression, we need to be clear that language about our experiences is ours to define and retain.

Anyone who is trans can use their own language to describe their experience. I have no need to insist someone who prefers to be she is he, I expect the same respect, where I will use the words woman not cis woman, breastfeeding not chest feeding etc

There were huge numbers of threads in the run up to Xmas about male violence to women. Guess you missed them. Guess mumsnet chose to support women's aid because it's never effected their members.

Silentlyscreaming I'm not sure what threads you can see, but I'm constantly depressed about the number of threads about male violence. And the number of threads where women think they might be being unreasonable to object to their Ps obnoxious behaviour! Female subservience seems so ingrained it isn't even noticed. Women seem to be groomed from an early age to prioritise the desires of men over their own needs, which is why it's important we stand firm to protect female only spaces and the legal existence of woman.

There are lovely displays of sophistry here with the underlying implication that by even talking about trans issue we are being transphobic.

Interesting isn't it?

I am completely happy to leave the trans people alone to do what they need to do to be happy. However I do not want to change the protective ted characteristic so a part time transgender person has to be treated as a woman. Nor do I want female spaces to be gender neutral - fuck that! Make the men's space gender neutral.

All the words just seek to distract us. Let's have a manifesto that is clearly not anti trans but requires women to be biologically / chromosomal women.

Who wants to have a go at writing that?

OP, I think you are right.

If a man is so committed to being a woman that he is willing to undergo surgery, then the chances are he isn't going to be violent. He certainly isn't going to be a rapist.

The ones I worry about are the ones who retain their male biology but "identify" as women. Because while some may be fine, there will be others, as we've seen, who will use their ability to access women's spaces as a way of harming women. And that isn't being alarmist - that's something we've already seen plenty of examples of.

All the words just seek to distract us. Let's have a manifesto that is clearly not anti trans but requires women to be biologically / chromosomal women.

Not possible.

The transwacktivists consider it transphobic to define women according to biological reality.

They are not really worried about trans people and whether or not trans people are safe. They only want to invade women's spaces.

Whenever TumbleTrans appears on a thread and points out that she* is a transwoman and does not consider it transphobic to acknowledge reality, you only hear crickets chirp, and not a sound from the transwacktivist allies.

Which illustrates quite nicely what this self-identification nonsense is all about.

*I am being polite with the pronouns here. Because if people respect my boundaries, I can be a really nice person.

There are lovely displays of sophistry here with the underlying implication that by even talking about trans issue we are being transphobic.

The only view I see being very clearly attempted to be shut down is mine and I don't see a lot of defence of a different view when it isn't your own.

Silentlyscreaming I'm not sure what threads you can see, but I'm constantly depressed about the number of threads about male violence. And the number of threads where women think they might be being unreasonable to object to their Ps obnoxious behaviour!

I agree that there are many threads about personal experiences of male violence but I don't see any joining-up of the problem. For example, a woman will write about her experience and she will, rightly, be told that her man's behaviour is unacceptable but it's always presented as a rouge man problem, not a societal problem.

I suggest that we ignore Silently, it is waste of time and space to talk to someone who refuses to listen.

Starting to agree. If their posts didn't claim to be familiar with Mumsnet and feminist issues in a way they clearly are not, I might be less suspicious.

Hell, if they can even clarify what their problem with 'firm boundaries' was in a way that convinces me that they didn't just misunderstand and then pretend they didn't, I might be less ready to conclude they're here to deceive.

SilentlyScreamingAgain
Gender self identification allows male predators access to womens spaces. Thats not something you've been able to address. Claiming they are not trans is missing the point altogether.

Women cant fix the problem of violent men, we can only address the consequenses.