A Tory Chancellor has just abandoned the self-employed

[longfingernails]

Hammond has raised class 4 NICs and cut the dividend allowance. AIBU to believe this is unacceptable. We need to be a low tax capitalist country which does everything to encourage entrepreneurs, whose animal spirits aren't dampened by high job taxes.

We should instead cut NI for all employers/employees. An easy initial cost saving is cutting international aid. We can also improve efficiency in public services through greater private provision, reducing the benefits cap, etc.

I see this government's tactic of divide and conquer are still being fallen for hook line and sinker, judging by the comments on here. Yes, somebody else is in a slightly better position than I am boo hiss, make them suffer. Oh, somebody else is now worse off than I am, yippee they deserve it.

ChristinaParsons - the self employed are ordinary people!

This thread has opened my eyes as I had no idea people viewed those of us who are self employed in this way. Whilst I don't regret my career change (I don't see the point as I can't go back) I earn about a quarter of what I earned in a corporate company on Paye and don't have the same benefits. It's stressful trying to secure enough work to make a living. But I love my job, and I hope that by investing my time and energy I can grow it to the point where I make a decent living. That's the reality of being self employed for many people.....

I wish I knew where I could find these accountants who would massage these figures and give you big dividends.

We don't have one, no dividends as you have to earn it to be paid it, it's not magic money that appears in a business account. Any big money gets put back in for reinvestment
People still ask 'cheaper for cash?' It gets put through the books regardless, because you rightly can't hide cash anymore

There was a time when it paid in "perks" to be self employed, those times have gone.
I'd imagine most self employed people are the likes of dh, trades people / delivery people / drivers. Not people who can afford flashy accountants to massage figures or earn enough to pay massive dividends

Not people who can afford flashy accountants to massage figures or earn enough to pay massive dividends Not people who can afford flashy accountants to massage figures or earn enough to pay massive dividends

There are contractors in IT and no doubt high earning people in companies who have service companies who do very well out of dividends - you can read their experiences on IT contractor forums.

But most self employed people live a precarious life style. Never sure where the next job comes from. Not able to save as much as they need and also having to save to put money to get through quiet times. They get hassle if they charge too much for their time. They get hassle if they charge when people cancel. People assume that cash is not declared. They often are forced into self employment but have to work for 1 company.

And then they are assumed to be Tory voters...

Yes of course there are self employed contractors doing very well, but I'd imagine that's the minority.

Listened to Hammond this morning on R4.

They played all the tapes of the PM etc saying that they would not increase taxes and NI before the election.

His excuse - well, we said that but when we made the law, we made it about NI Class 1 and MPs should have said something about that at the time.

That sounds like a weasel excuse.

He's also going to look at the digital economy - and potential tax rises there.

Money has to come from somewhere. I suppose they've cut all they think they can get away with so now they need to tax some people.

they've cut all they think they can get away with

His targets show that what we have seen is but the very tip of the iceberg.

Still a big difference?

This compares 2 people on £32000.

Tax - £4200 each.
Employed - £2872 NI
Self employed £2300 NI

So not a massive difference considering the advantages many employed people have

My wife is self employed through her own Ltd company.. She works like tat because as a female over 50 it is near impossible to get a "proper job". Ageism is alive and kicking.

As self employed she has no job security, no sick pay, no holiday pay.

The Labour chancellor is lying when he talks about it not being fare that people with employment rights have the same income as people without employment security..

Me and DH are self employed Contractors and yes we do earn pretty well.
However, if we take a holiday we lose £thousands and DH had a GP appointment last week that cost him a days earnings. He has been referred to the consultant so another days earnings lost there too.
As we work on short term contracts generally we have to search regularly and although we have good reputations and don't have to wait long between jobs we usually have a couple of months with it pay added up over the year.
Sickness also costs us in lost earnings as can child illness needing time off school. We take care of our own pensions and sick benefits.
I'm not asking for any sympathy - we are high earners but there is a downside too.
Our accountant is excellent and while we always pay not a penny less that we have to we don't pay a penny more either and I'm sure there will be ways of ensuring that we aren't hit too badly by this. For example the dividends tax goes up in April so a lot of SE people I know are emptying company accounts now and not planning on taking any earnings next year at all.

However, if we take a holiday we lose £thousands and DH had a GP appointment last week that cost him a days earnings

That's something I struggle with - I have to rationalise that with the fact that I need to earn a 'bigger' salary to make it comparable to someone on a lower salary who gets annual leave.

For example the dividends tax goes up in April

April 2018.

There's also the whole issue of employment rights and protection which is not financial - e.g. I couldn't take any maternity leave when I had my kids because I work contract to contract, it's all about word of mouth, and being available, the first time you're not, you lose that work and a whole load of future work. I didn't dare take any time off.

If you're employed, it's illegal to discriminate in that way, but if you're self employed there is absolutely no protection at all.

Did anyone notice the one about fining accountants who put forward an idea that reduces tax and is challenged by the revenue.

There is a general drive to push accountants out of the system because a good accountant can save a lot of tax because they actually know the tax law and can claim the appropriate allowances. For instance DW saved a client £186K CGT by applying the appropriate trust law to the situation. The Revenue were happy to accept the wrong tax and say nothing. In future that may be considered as tax avoidance and DW gets fined for her advice.

as long as in return the self employed have recourse to the same benefits that employees do, which is going to cost, sick pay etc, I think this is short sighted, but if it hastens the demise of this government it's fine with me.

Tough luck, you choose to be self-employed, you have to grin and bear it and run all the risks that go with it. Why should the self-employed get special treatment/extra benefits that other workers do not?

Entitled, much?

And as for suggesting the government should cut international aid? The British and the British government have a moral obligation to pay foreign aid to their former colonies, as a means of an apology, for exploiting their lands and their people for hundreds of years. The small island Britain did not get so wealthy through sheer luck, or wit and wisdom, or the sweat and tears of British serfs

But citybushisland those benefits are part of the employees compensation package and have nothing at all to do with NI. As amisparticus suggests, you cannot make a direct comparison between salaries of the employed and earnings of the self-employed.
The self-employed are now entitled to pretty much the same state benefits and pension as the employed and these are things that tax and NI contribute towards.

The self-employed are now entitled to pretty much the same state benefits and pension as the employed and these are things that tax and NI contribute towards

I'm not sure if that's true. I looked at sick pay recently and was told I was not eligible for it. I am a director of my own company - and I am pretty certain that although I could claim sick pay as an employee, I couldn't claim it back as an employer. IYSWIM.

But being an employee of my own company does come with benefits as well.

I'm a self-employed childminder. Limited company??
Dividends??
Conservative voter?

A lot of self-employed people are forced to be self-employed so the companies they work for can avoid benefits and NI contributions. They are poorly paid.

It is not going down very well. It is not the amount we will have to pay extra it is the message - that he thinks we all evade tax (many of us do not and pay a heap of tax - I do) and that he thinks we choose to be self employed (most of us had no choice and many self employed woudl adore a permanent full time PAYE job). There is no statutory sick pay for those who are self employed and I was having to take business calls the day after the twins were born as no maternity pay not even 90% of pay for 6 weeks after birth. Huge divide. Plus admin - I have just sent 2 bills to clients - if I were employed I woudl just get money put into my bank account instead of having to spend time doing that. Another task today will be work out and pay my VAT - unpaid tax payer.

We need a much much smaller state and much lower taxes all round.

This is also about control. Big State is unahppy that people can be free, rent rooms on airbnb, work when they choose. It wants us all in neat little boxes. Disrupting businesses annoy the state. It hates change.

Last year dividend rules changed and a lot of people stopped having a limited company as lot of tax advantage went.

If work dries up for self employed people, they can't claim the contribution based bit of JSA.

My partner is self employed and does not earn a great deal. I agree with these changes. Self employed people used to be entitled to less, their entitlements have been increased in line with salaried people. So NICs have been raised inline with salaried people.

their entitlements have been increased in line with salaried people

Have they? So sick pay?

It's also much harder to get things like mortgages etc.

No-one should imagine the self-employed have it easier.