why should house of lords be able to determine our future?

[dreamingofsun]

Could someone explain to me why an unelected group of people (many of whom seem old/senile/out of touch with every day life) determine our terms of leaving the european union - and whether we leave it at all. the british public voted to leave - so why do they think they can alter that? why do they think they can over-rule what the majority of public said?

why when there's welfare cuts left right and centre they pay this doddery dusty bunch 300 quid a day?! fgs surely that should be the first austerity cut.

If they had been the first austerity cut, a lot of people would be in deep shit financially now.

When George Osborne and David Cameron announced that they intended to cut Working Tax Credits as their latest 'genius idea' - intending to just whip the rug out from under the feet of possibly millions of families just because they thought they could - it was the House of Lords which stepped in and over-ruled them. And now it's the House of Lords trying to make sure we don't royally shaft ourselves and other people while we withdraw from the EU. Theresa May is so giddy on her Daily Mail reader approval ratings she doesn't care about anything else.

"Doddery dusty bunch"

Like Helena Kennedy, Oona King, Michael Hesseltine, Justin Welbey, Alan Sugar............

Thank the lord for The Lords. A chamber of people who care for this country & who are not self serving politicians concerned about being reelected. Thank goodness they are scrutinising TMs bullheaded stance.

If there was a way they could stop Brexit I wish they would. I would vote for whichever party stood for not leaving the EU. The EU may not be perfect but it's a hell of a lot better than what we will end with.

The fact that Heseltine has been sacked shows they aren't doddery. Disgraceful behaviour from TM.

This is your sovereignty you wanted back!!

How is it the Lords fault if you fail to understand how your own government works?!?

Because members of the HOL do very nicely from open borders and don't fancy having to pay more for British domestic staff when they can pay Eastern Europeans half the wage and get other taxpayers to subsidise the shortfall in living costs.

"An important amendment to include vital protections for migrant domestic workers has been voted into the Modern Slavery Bill by the House of Lords on the 25th February 2015."

Yeah, that's the HoL abusing those migrant domestic workers again.

*This is your sovereignty you wanted back!!

How is it the Lords fault if you fail to understand how your own government works?!?*

This a thousand times over. I always have a little chuckle to myself when I hear about brexiters ire over "unelected" MEPs deciding their laws. Sigh.

It's outrageous that Michael Heseltine has been sacked from his govt. position.

Chilling, actually.

I'm glad (in this case) that the lords are looking out for us. They are certainly a lot more qualified than the knuckle draggers who voted us out based on nothing but populist headlines

Oh, yes. The HofL is motivated by its members desire for cheap butlers.

Give me strength.

I hate that the op has confirmed my prejudices about the Leave vote. I know a few of Leave voters who did so with eyes wide open and with a clear understanding of the UK system of government. But not the op, it would seem.
How can you not know this stuff?

Because that's our democratic system.

Furthermore, the vote was only 'advisory' - the Government would be acting democratically if they ignored the advice. Although Farage would have a heart attack...the more I think about it, the more reasonable an idea it sounds.

As has been pointed out about a zillion times, the UK is a parliamentary democracy. We elect suitable representatives to parliament in regular elections, they run the country. It's not a Swiss canton where everyone votes on almost everything.

How we leave the EU is vitally important for the future of the country, so of course parliament will be the ones making the decision about whether the deal struck with the EU about post-Article 50 is suitable and acceptable.

Honestly I am convinced nothing is ever taught in schools about how the political system actually works; so many people are ignorant of what "democracy" actually means. I grew up in another country- we all had excursions to the capital city and learned about how our political system operated. How else can you meaningfully participate in the process?

I seem to have acquired more knowledge of the UK parliamentary democracy system from doing the Life in the UK test as an immigrant than many people who were born here have. Which is quite ironic!

Semaphorically I'm pretty convinced that the last 20 years or so has seen a deliberate and cynical dumbing down of education just to create a more credulous and ignorant population.

'm pretty convinced that the last 20 years or so has seen a deliberate and cynical dumbing down of education just to create a more credulous and ignorant population

If you control the curriculum, you can control a lot of the population. If you dictate what history should be taught and what books should be read, you have a lot of control.

Disgraceful behaviour from TM. No, not at all, just pragmatic. He was trying to undermine the position of the govt, whilst being a member of that govt, albeit on the outer edges. If he couldn't toe the party line, (and he has form for this over the decades I've been watching his antics), then TM had to make it clear how recalcitrance would be dealt with 'pour encourager les autres' who might think about rebelling in the Commons.

He should have taken note of how she dealt with Osbourne, when she became PM.

TM had to make it clear how recalcitrance would be dealt with 'pour encourager les autres' who might think about rebelling in the Commons

Rebelling in the Commons.

I understand that if you are part of the Government - ie not a Backbencher, then your position does become untenable if you cannot accept collective responsibility for the Government line.

But - what if you are a Backbencher and not part of the Government. Just a Tory MP with no Government responsibilities.

Then what - you are a local MP who is there to represent your constituents. Not to represent the party but your constituents. If your constituents voted Remain, surely you have a duty to stick up and to represent their views - if you are a backbencher.

Yes Prime Minister and the Power to the people episode covered this very well. It would have made MPs unafraid of deselection and the party Whip. Which would have made it difficult to get unpopular leglisation through.

Disagree about dumbing down in last 20 years. I went to school in 70s and we weren't formally taught this stuff either until A'level. But don't you just pick it up from, y'know, watching the news or whatever?

"I want acts challenged and amended, just not sure if this is the best over privileged bunch to do it."

They seem to be making a pretty good job of it, to be honest!

And please will people stop going on about them being old. Why does it matter? They bring a wealth of experience to the debate. Unlike many in the HoC they have actually lived lives outside Westminster.

Miniatureegg They are certainly a lot more qualified than the knuckle draggers who voted us out based on nothing but populist headlines

I and my fellow 'knuckle draggers' thank you so much for your reasoned contribution. Comments like yours are precisely why lots of people voted out. They were sick of their concerns being dismissed, and their opinions being derided. Many of us did our research and decided on balance that we were better off out, as the Brussels/Berlaymont bubble seems impermeable, and the institutions resistant to change. Even Juncker now seems to acknowledge this, in his recent 'merde' speech to the EP, where he says that the EU hadn't listened.

So we're in a position where the wealthy are using their privileged position to block the expressed wishes of the majority of the poorer lower middle and working classes

The majority of the poorer lower middle and working classes are not capable of understanding the complexities of Brexit. Neither are most the more educated or socially elevated classes either to be fair. The difference is those "poorer" people you refer to are by and large in a position of unconscious incompetence - they don't even know what they don't know. The more educated among us at least realise there is a shi!t load we do not and cannot know about a post-Brexit future.

There should never have been a referendum in the first place. Democracy has limitations and allowing every Tom, Dick and Harry to vote on an issue so complex that even the experts cannot reach consensus on a single point is way beyond those limitations. The fact that so many Leavers think that an advisory vote on a single, simplistic sentence means we should just crack on and leave the EU without any further discussion, debate or parliamentary oversight shows how woefully ignorant most of them are.

Don't break your heart over Heseltine - rebelling is his schtick. Google "Westland" if you are too young to remember it at the time. He's just a sideshow.

Very few of us regardless of income or social class were qualified to vote on Brexit. That is why we live in a representative democracy.