why should house of lords be able to determine our future?

[dreamingofsun]

Could someone explain to me why an unelected group of people (many of whom seem old/senile/out of touch with every day life) determine our terms of leaving the european union - and whether we leave it at all. the british public voted to leave - so why do they think they can alter that? why do they think they can over-rule what the majority of public said?

It is good to see Tarzan swinging the metaphorical mace again, though.

Yes MrsDoyle, that's true of course. I don't remember being taught a thing about our political system through school. However I do remember a bunch of sixth formers staging a mock hustings and election when our constituency had a by election, and they whipped everyone's enthusiasm up and we were all clued up. This was just a normal Welsh comp, nowhere particularly privileged. It was 1989 or so, so the height of Tory excess and sleaze etc.

However lots of people and kids now seem so disengaged and uninterested. Knowledge and enthusiasm are often sneered at at ignorance is the order of the day. It's like loads of people don't want to know things. How did it get like this?

Arf, not qualified to vote on Brexit

But I guess we were all qualified to sleep walk into a federalist state which we had never voted for? That's Ok is it!

Many of us did our research

I am not sure how much I agree with that statement. I am sure some people did some research but I am also sure that many people were taken in by the rhetoric and lies coming from the Leave side and did absolutely no research.

Sorry, efterling. Don't understand.

Michael Heseltine has said after being sacked from the government that he will continue to fight against Britain leaving the EU – and has been been chastised on television for saying Theresa May has a “man-size” job to do

Charming! Poor TM how will she cope in those Man sized boots.

No I can see that BR you do seem to ask an awful lot of questions on here that people who follow this know already.

Ami Then the whip gets withdrawn, and your local party could deselect you, thus meaning you don't get support at the next election. Your position could then become untenable and you resign, thus allowing a pro Brexit candidate a run at the seat in the ensuing by election.

What TM has demonstrated is that she will not take prisoners. Much better imo, that the previous wet incumbent who U turned at the sniff of a negative opinion poll rating.

There's too much interesting but trivial stuff to find out about . I get The Week Junior for my dd to, at least expose her to current affairs so it doesn't seem so alien and so dull.

People are always talking about "doing their research". I don't understand, therefore, why, when I ask Leavers "What benefits do you think you will get from Brexit? How will things be better?" I never seem to get a coherent answer.

Even Juncker now seems to acknowledge this, in his recent 'merde' speech to the EP, where he says that the EU hadn't listened

Ah, now its all crashing around his ears he listens and its too late. Won't he soon be replaced by Guy Verhofstadt The man who rabidly wants more EU?

What TM has demonstrated is that she will not take prisoners. Much better imo, that the previous wet incumbent who U turned at the sniff of a negative opinion poll rating

Maybe working together as a compromise for ALL the MPs in her party and the country as a whole is better?

"No I can see that BR you do seem to ask an awful lot of questions on here that people who follow this know already"

A case in point!

No need to answer any questions- we just know

Maybe they don't like to be repeatedly ask questions, then when they take the time and trouble to reply, they are ( conveniently) ignored?

I'm glad a lot of members of the HoL are 'old'. People who have lived a long time have seen and been through a lot. They have a wealth of experience. Things I only know because I have read about, they have lived. Many members of the HoL were MPs in the past- they know how things work, and, importantly, they know what hasn't worked in the past. Youth is no guarantee of quality- David Cameron was one of the youngest PMs ever and led us into this mess!

"if you went into hospital for a major op wouldn't you be concerned if an oap wandered in to greet you and say yes theyre 80 but they're very capable? "

No. because it's likely that a person of that age might have shakier hands and poorer eyesight than I would wish for in a surgeon. I would be perfectly happy if my surgeon had been taught by a person with a lifetime of experience, though.

The Lords are trying to keep our sovereignty in the EU. We want to hand it back to our elected MPs. That's why the Lords are out of order.

This, exactly.

The "leave" result obviously meant that the UK's complete sovereignty and democracy should be reclaimed from Brussels by leaving the EU.

Any claim that the best way to implement "Leave the European Union" without even leaving the EU in the first place, is clearly disingenous and will not return our sovereignty and democracy to us.

Therefore no, it is not "what Brexiters wanted".

I'm incredibly glad they are there, and am terribly grateful for several different Commons insanities they've stopped lately

Yep.

A close relation works right at the heart of government and knows how clueless the bloody lot are about Brexit. Anyone who believes there is anything resembling 'a plan' is misguided.

Without a plan, it's simply a huge, expensive, depressing disaster.

I don't mind the house of lords I think the system needs massive over haul and needs reform but its OK. The issue with Brexit is that its not really representative of the current mood of the country like HOC. Most Labour areas voted Leave for instance.

There is massive crisis when their is political disconnect between people on the ground and the people who are supposed to represent them which is why TM is on the money with Brexit.

Having said that - having used the wonderful tool Google, I have just found a few too many pics of the Lords having the Snooze as itsmine just mentioned bless them! DF is 80 and I would have no qualms at all about him being a member of the Lords, brain is brilliant - experience you can't buy. But I couldn't guarantee he would stay awake and wouldn't have a rather large and loud snooze in some serious debates

Even Juncker now seems to acknowledge this, in his recent 'merde' speech to the EP, where he says that the EU hadn't listened

I don't believe him for one minute. Of course some in the EU are going to put on a veneer of reasonableness when they're afraid of us escaping their clutches. It isn't genuine and will not last.

The issue with Brexit is that its not really representative of the current mood of the country like HOC. Most Labour areas voted Leave for instance

The country was pretty evenly split. You did notice that?

Even Juncker now seems to acknowledge this, in his recent 'merde' speech to the EP, where he says that the EU hadn't listened

It's a pity he didn't realise this before David Cameron tried to get his deal. Juncker is an idiot. Merkel was wrong to support his candidacy for the presidency.

I voted to remain because I think there are big advantages to staying in. But I can understand the very real concerns about the EU.

What I don't understand, as I said above, is the drag over the cliff-edge to a hard Brexit when there are plenty of options to keep a close working relationship without being a member. Why leave Euratom - that wasn't part of the referendum debate. Why leave the customs union? Single Market/EEA - more complex because of immigration issue - but I'm sure there could be a resolution despite what the EU keeps saying. Why not aim to rejoin EFTA?

The UK pays 12% of the EU's budget. More than 10%. You'd have thought they'd have been a bit keener to keep us on side - both in and out of the EU.

Luxembourg, which arguable benefits more from the EU than any other member state, pays in the least per head of population. Per head, not overall. You'd expect them to pay less overall, they have a small population. But the least per head? Less than poorer countries such as Greece/Romania/Bulgaria? That is outrageous.