why should house of lords be able to determine our future?

[dreamingofsun]

Could someone explain to me why an unelected group of people (many of whom seem old/senile/out of touch with every day life) determine our terms of leaving the european union - and whether we leave it at all. the british public voted to leave - so why do they think they can alter that? why do they think they can over-rule what the majority of public said?

Really? In what way do ABs benefit most from the EU

And what concrete improvements to their lives are the Leave voters expecting once we leave? I mean tangible personal improvements, not vague comments about "taking back control" etc. What do you expect to change in YOUR life?

So we're in a position where the wealthy are using their privileged position to block the expressed wishes of the majority of the poorer lower middle and working classes

How on earth does requiring the terms of leaving to be properly scrutinised for the benefit of the British people constitute blocking anyone's expressed wishes? They way the Leave faction go on, you would think that the vote was to leave on any terms, no matter how appalling they are. If that had been put to the electorate last year, it's pretty clear the vote would have gone the other way. I wonder how the Cornish people who voted for Brexit feel now that they realise that the money they receive from the EU isn't going to be replaced by central UK government?

The suggestion that this is the rich seeking to benefit themselves is manifestly nonsense. Frankly, if you're well off you probably won't be affected by Brexit, because you will be able to take steps to protect yourself. It's the rest of us who will suffer for it, and I for one am very grateful to the Lords for doing what they can to minimise that.

littlefrog3, I would put money on a bet that you haven't watched the Lords debate. If you had, you would have seen serious debate by intelligent people who have taken the trouble to find out what they're talking about and who care deeply about the future of the country. What is "demented and dopey" is people who seek to characterise them in that way without bothering to find out what they're talking about.

The Lords - apart from the hereditary peers - are for the most part people who have held real jobs and lived real lives. Which is more than you can say for most MPs.

It seems that Tory MPs are under threat of losing the whip if they rebel.

I think it's a key question - who are local MPs responsible to? Their party OR their constituents?

This was part of Yes Prime Minister when discussing reform. Ultimately Hacker was concerned that MPs would not become afraid of losing the whip and deselection.

""Sir Humphrey invites Professor Marriott to tell Jim and Dorothy about the Professor's upcoming article for the Political Review. Professor Marriott explains that under his scheme local MP's become genuinely independent. Their re-election will depend on the people and not on the backing of the local party. This will mean the end of the power of the party machine and the party whips.

Jim is appalled by this idea! After Marriott has left he announces that it is out of the question. But what about Agnes Moorhouse? Then Sir Humphrey tells Jim about the deal he made with Agnes. Jim concludes that the nation is not ready for total democracy""

scottish, it doesn't actually matter how much want to lecture about how marvellous the EU is for CDEs. They voted in a very solid majority to reject it. But the ABs are using their more powerful position to ensure that ABs wishes weaken or prevent the CDEs position because apparently the CDEs are too stupid, ill educated, gullible or misinformed to know what's good for them and need to be guided by the paternalistic wealthy ABs. It's a position akin to wealthy mill owners denying the vote to Chartists in the 19th century yet apparently one that a lot of supposedly left wingers espouse.

It's ABs that benefit from plentiful, cheap labour that the EU brings because it allows them to pay themselves larger wages and increased profits without passing any increases on to their workforce.

ABs benefit from a transient workforce prepared to accept poor hours working conditions and contracts or enforced self employment and no training which means everybody else has to take them too.

It's the ABs who benefit from the rising house costs that come from a rising population with their buy to lets and soaring house prices while the CDEs pay soaring rents and can't get on the housing ladder.

And perhaps the CDEs aren't actually that stupid and realise that mat leave is written in to UK law too and aren't going to fall for scaremongering that without the EU lead spikes will be sold as toys.

ABs tend to dominate the professions filled by EU subsidised work, particularly high salary roles.

The ABs benefit from a cheap EU playground to sell their goods whilst blocking cheap imports from elsewhere and also skilled migrants from outside the EU who might take their jobs rather than unskilled EU masses who are somebody else's problem.

People saying how marvellous the EU is don't seem to realise that under Labour life went to absolute shit for everyone not on benefits or an AB and has never recovered. But we're all supposed to be scared of 'teh evil Tories'. And most of 'teh evil Tories' supported the EU for exactly the reasons given, it's a Capitalist's wet dream.

The EU and the left wing are discovering that people watching their lives going to shit every day won't keep on believing your promises the EU is just around the corner every day.

And CDEs have watched the ABs getting richer and richer while they get poorer so of course they don't believe that the ABs suddenly care about them. Especially when during and post referendum it became increasingly clear the ABs despise the CDEs.

CDEs are too stupid, ill educated, gullible or misinformed to know what's good for them and need to be guided by the paternalistic wealthy ABs.

Hmmm. If you look at who has been leading the CDEs towards the promised nirvana you will find plenty of paternalistic wealthy ABs.

billsykes

Can you explain how the Lords have blocked Brexit?

Because the Lords can't block Brexit.

Is this true?

So we're in a position where the wealthy are using their privileged position to block the expressed wishes of the majority of the poorer lower middle and working classes

perhaps the CDEs aren't actually that stupid and realise that mat leave is written in to UK law too

And can be unwritten very easily. At the moment EU law means it has to stay regardless of how right wing a Tory government we get. At the moment they are saying lots of lovely things about keeping workers' rights. Do you believe a word of it? There are a lot of Tories who want us to be like the US.

The very first thing this government did when it came to power (well it was the Coalition government) was to extend the period for being able to claim for unfair dismissal from 1 year to 2. It has also made employment tribunal fees very high to discourage claims.

If we get a right wing Tory government post-Brexit we can kiss goodbye to our employment rights.

As for people not knowing what they voted for, they voted to leave the EU. They did not get asked about the EEA, or the Single Market and definitely not EURATOM.

I could have accepted a soft Brexit, but this headlong plunge over the cliff-edge is madness.

What really needs to happen is another referendum even though I hate them.

Do you want:

The UK to remain in the Single Market
To remain in the EEA
To join EFTA
To leave the EU completely and not look back
Actually do we need to leave the EU at all?

Something like that.

It's outrageous that Michael Heseltine has been sacked from his govt. position.

Before posting on a public forum how about googling how the parliamentary system works in the U.K.!!!!! The internet is full of information

The internet is full of information

And make sure the source is credible and without bias.

Breitbart might not be a reliable news source.

Excellent Post Bill, this is a big problem when people are tribally aligned to only one party, they cant see the wood for the trees.

People saying how marvellous the EU is don't seem to realise that under Labour life went to absolute shit for everyone not on benefits or an AB and has never recovered

Yes we are one family who really suffered under Labour - not 100% down to Labour - it was CC as well, but many other factors too made life almost un bearable. I am a swing voter - I like to appraise as I see, not lie to myself - pull wool over my eyes and subscribe to an alternate truth down to tribal allegiance and brainwashing and an almost religious like fervor loyalty to ONE PARTY. Its bonkers. Its like a new religion.

Kiss goodbye to employment rights!!

What utter nonsense, we are a leading beacon on rights round the world, that came from largely Labour policies too - not the EU!!!

I am a swing voter - I like to appraise as I see, not lie to myself - pull wool over my eyes and subscribe to an alternate truth down to tribal allegiance and brainwashing and an almost religious like fervor loyalty to ONE PARTY. Its bonkers. Its like a new religion

I don't see this having anything to do with party loyalty but a discussion on Brexit and WHO has the say on the discussion about it.

Surely Parliament should discuss Brexit and decide what the red lines are?

What utter nonsense, we are a leading beacon on rights round the world, that came from largely Labour policies too - not the EU

And you noticed that employment rights are changing under this Government?

Because 'small businesses' are burdened by employment rights.

Erm, EU laws can be unwritten too. But that post really reveals something. The assumption from remainers is that the EU is left wing and will always remain left wing so is a convenient way to maintain left wing power in the UK even if the electorate here reject it.

Which means that the 'left wing' here (which is mostly an AB movement) can vote en bloc with radical Greeks and Poles and Romanians who benefit from free movement and money being sent home to ensure that the real problems the CDEs face in the UK are never addressed: stagnating wages and poor expensive housing.

In reality better maternity pay is a low price for the ABs to pay in return for a cheap workforce prepared to accept poor conditions and contracts and ripe for exploitation via housing.

If the left 'care' so much why have they never addressed those problems? CDEs in the UK have always been collateral damage for the wider EU project.

One thing I am finding quite amusing at the moment.

Scotland voted to REMAIN within the UK.
The UK voted to LEAVE the EU.
People in Scotland voted to REMAIN in the EU.
The UK Government is telling the people of Scotland (who by and large did not vote for the party in power) that they are better off together in the UK than in the EU.

That strikes me as somewhat strange. Arguing to leave the EU and arguing to stay in the UK.

It would have been fascinating IF Scotland had chosen to leave the UK to see the types of discussions and the form of Scottish Exit people would have had. On both sides.

Just under 52% of those who voted were for Brexit. Just over 48% were for remain. Almost 28% of those eligible to vote did not do so, so we don't know what they wanted. This is not a clear "will of the people" situation: remember, just before the results were known, prominent brexiters predicting a 52/48 result in favour of remain and declaring that they wouldn't accept that as it would mean almost as many people wanted brexit as wanted to leave? But now we're all supposed to agree that the slender majority in favour of brexit means brexit is the unarguable "will of the people" and must not be opposed? Ridiculous.

In any case, the Lords cannot overrule the Commons for long. The Parliament Act can be invoked if the Lords continue to return legislation to the Commons rather than pass it unamended. The Lords can delay, they can discuss, they can ask the Commons to think again, they can raise questions, they can scrutinise, but at the end of the day if the Commons wishes, it can ram legislation through anyway.

I cannot believe that anyone who actually cares about this issue and thinks it is important, whether they support Brexit or Remain, would want it to be rushed through and not the subject of major, serious, detailed discussion and scrutiny and planning. Dragging us out of the EU is a big deal. If you're going to do it, do it properly, carefully, thoughtfully. Or don't do it at all.

Bill there is a range of issues over the EU that have never been addressed - I don't view the EU as caring at all nor the Left wing now sadly. I posted earlier about an article - how Europe failed them re - children an act passed in 2008 which has never been acted on and the situation worsened. I don't buy into this Left good and caring - right evil and wicked crap.
My own eyes and experiences tell me very differently.

I think I read one of Labour Gisella Stuarts reasons for backing Leave was - (aside from working in the EU for Blair and realizing it cant and wont change) - was the federalizing aspect of it - having come from a Europe half under the iron wicked evil grip of the communists, she feared the federalizing nature of the EU.

And YY - who the hell knows who will end up in the EU parliament, if one can call it that. Any one see

"http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/03/european-parliament-sexism-storm-lawmaker-says-women-small-weak/"

A Polish member of the European Parliament may be punished after he said that women should earn less than men because they are weaker, smaller and "less intelligent."

Janusz Korwin-Mikke, a radical right-winger who leads a marginal party, could face sanctions such as a reprimand, a fine or a temporary suspension.

Of course current government in Poland is looking worrying as well as Orban - and Solvakia etc. Its really not the beacon of light it likes to think it is when its all cosied up in its colorful new expensive palace ( whilst children are being trafficked etc) I think we will do far better on our own thank you very much.

The assumption from remainers is that the EU is left wing and will always remain left wing

You are forever seeing what's in people's mind (and getting it wrong) and putting words into their mouths. It undermines your arguments.

Dragging us out of the EU is a big deal. If you're going to do it, do it properly, carefully, thoughtfully. Or don't do it at all

This. There are loads and loads of trade regulations, deals, tariffs etc to consider. Going to the World trade arrangements if they can't be agreed on is a massive thing.

Of course, we have the USA as a trade partner. Except Trump is going to put America first and their economy is far bigger than ours and is undergoing massive deregulation. They will have the bigger hand to negotiate with there and how do you compete with an economy playing loose and fast with regulations and the cost cutting?

Why is it outrageous Marcia? I would say it's Karma personally.

Very good point Spartacus.

Could someone explain to me why an unelected group of people (many of whom seem old/senile/out of touch with every day life) determine our terms of leaving the european union - and whether we leave it at all

Sure isn't that exactly what you voted for? To take back your democracy from Europe and put it back in the hands of BRITISH LAW, and British justice? Well, this is what that looks like! This is how your legal system works, how your democracy works. It's precisely what you wanted!