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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

WWYD - sibling feels entitled to DPs time

151 replies

hatchbackofnotredame · 06/03/2017 09:01

NC for this, but regular.

I'll try to keep this as brief as possible, but don't want to dripfeed so a bit of background is needed.

Sister is childless, recently bought her first house with her longterm partner, having lived at home to that point. She has mild anxiety and depression, but both she and her partner hold down well-paid graduate jobs. Despite owning her own home (which is beautiful) for 2 years, she still lives with my parents at weekends, including taking her washing there for them to do. She also spends all her annual leave there (she has literally never had a holiday elsewhere). She is 37.

Recently, due to a scheduling conflict, my parents pulled out of an arrangement to see Dsis and her partner for a week of annual leave. They didn't communicate this well to Dsis, and left it to the last minute to tell her, which was understandably upsetting for her.

However, Dsis is now refusing to speak to, or contact, our parents and says she feels that they have shown her "disrespect". (While I feel that they could have given her more notice, I disagree that they intended to show a lack of respect by it). She is accusing them of deliberately depriving her of any possibility of having a nice week off, because she can't possibly take time off in her own home with her partner and still enjoy it. Therefore, they have "ruined" her holiday and she can't forgive them for depriving her of "precious downtime".

What concerns me most is that she takes the position, and I quote, that our parents' refusal to have her over for the week means that they are "in dictating mode and there is very little that is less helpful that people telling you they know what you need better than you yourself do". In other words, she TOLD my parents she needed a week off with them, and they dared to suggest they had other things to do and that she really should get more used to spending annual leave with her partner alone. My sister thinks this is absolutely outrageous and that they owe her a nice time on her week off. There is no room her for my parents to have their own independent desires.

Important bit of context: my position to date has been to stand clear of this relationship and to let them all get on with it. I have, however, become quite concerned about things since my DM has significant MH issues and there have been hints that these are being (unwittingly or deliberately) exploited. In particular, my mother finds it very hard to say "no" (due to an abusive childhood) by herself, so it's incredibly difficult for her to set boundaries. What happens repeatedly is that my sister insists that there is a medical reason for her to get what she wants: she must have their company on a certain date because of her anxiety, they must do her washing because of her depression etc. Now it has become that my mother is "damaging her" by denying her the opportunity to have the annual leave she wants. My Mum has said explicitly she doesn't want to do these things like extra washing (she and my Dad are in their late 60s and both are cancer survivors), but she feels guilted into them.

I just don't know what to do. Part of me thinks I should continue to stay out of this as a toxic situation that is between them. Another part desperately wants to support and protect my parents, because I feel this is now reaching a point of entitlement/potential exploitation where it is becoming almost a mild form of abuse. WWYD?

OP posts:
HappyFlappy · 06/03/2017 13:05

BTW - my daughter has Aspergers, and she is not manipulative in any way - on the contrary, she is incredibly thoughtful and loving, but finds people very difficult to read and is unable to stand up for herself because she has a tendency to take everything literally, and knows that she does this - this means that she gives people the benefit of the doubt when often they are being pretty unkind to her.

hatchbackofnotredame · 06/03/2017 13:10

I think you're right hopelessly - there's definitely a deep-seated set of anxieties here. But I don't know how they would ever get diagnosed/tackled in a situation of enabling help. My hope is that, if the current gap that has opened can be maintained, the actual problem might become more visible because it is no longer being enabled.

I'm trying to think how to answer your questions about Dsis's childhood - I honestly don't think I can really answer because everyone is so differently affected by things and I am at the limits of my knowledge. She was and continues to be the favourite and I can't think of any legitimate grievances she has with my parents. She had a good childhood as far as I'm aware, though that doesn't mean there's not something I'm unaware of. There is one thing, though - my mother is very, very anxious and always tended to emphasize how we needed to try really hard at everything to succeed (she is like the worst critic you could ever get in terms of vocalising and thereby reinforcing every bit of inner insecurity you have out of a genuine desire to motivate you to try harder) and I am sure that has been a factor for Dsis's self-esteem, as it was for me.

Moving out: my Dsis insists on a certain standard of living. A flat is definitely not good enough, a terraced house is also beyond the pale, and she couldn't possibly rent. She refused to move until able to afford a large semi in a nice area with a huge garden (funded partly by the fact that she was able to save almost all her wage and that of her DP thanks to my parents subsidising their lifestyle). However, once bought, she continued to live with our parents, saying the new house made her have panic attacks/extreme anxiety. (I can understand this, I had terrible panic attacks when I bought my first house, but I didn't move back in with my parents to compensate because I was 28). So it just stayed empty for ages. They have slowly, slowly, gently, gently started insisting that she spends more time there, to the point that, two years later, she now lives there Monday-Friday, but all her things, clothes etc. continue to be at DP's house.

DSis is extremely resentful that DP are "dictating" to her how she should live (they're not, they have just said they want her to inhabit her own house). She says that they "ought to listen" because she knows best what is good for her - there is almost no room there for them to disagree! She's also cross that they have not gone over and sorted out the house and garden for her - she expected them to do this. She and her DP have a combined income of something just short of £100k and a low mortgage, so it is not about not being able to afford help. It feels more like it's about her exercising power over DP or something. Sad I think they have had to be quite brave to stand up to her -my DM is very upset about it.

OP posts:
DeadGood · 06/03/2017 13:12

Ah OP this sounds really shit.

I really agree with PP who say "support your parents and stay out of it". Change the subject if needed (when you are talking to your sister). If you enter into conflict with her, she will be free to carry on the fiction that others [in this case, you] are to blame for everything that's going wrong for her.

Whereas if you leave her to it, chances are she will gradually lose the need to impose herself on your parents, they will move on too, relations will thaw over time, and there were no actual arguments to have to paper over in the future.

Atenco · 06/03/2017 13:13

I think your parents are the only people who can change this dynamic and they would probably need some external help with this. It sounds like co-dependency to me and it strikes me that your dm's abusive childhood has gone on to damage her dds in various degrees.

I know that in some parts of the world, AA have groups for co-dependents, which basically means they could have psychological help for free.

hatchbackofnotredame · 06/03/2017 13:13

(To be clear: I left home at 18 and rented a series of successively slightly less awful flats for 18 years until I could afford to buy at 28. My parents do not live in a fancy house or area - my sister's current house is far nicer than anything we ever lived in as a family, so the entitlement is definitely not something she was "born to").

OP posts:
CryingShame · 06/03/2017 13:20

Please ignore your DSis for now. Go and see your parents and ask them what they want out of this. It might be better to take them out of the house to achieve this, for a coffee somewhere or a walk.

They need to take back control of this - if she hasa key change the locks, go out when she tries to turn up for the weekend but tell her earlier in the week that they won't be in this weekend so she should not try to come round but they'll be happy to see her on Sunday afternoon, for example, after 3pm, and make sure they're back for that. Ideally they should go somewhere for the weekend to ensure they're out, not just ignore the door, but to reclaim what it is that they want to do at weekends.

ijustwannadance · 06/03/2017 13:40

If I was your DP's I would seize this opportunity, pack the rest of your sis's clothes and crap and and have them delivered to HER house.

You really should support your parents. They will end up giving in. They need to stop enabling her.

I assume in some way your sis finds it difficult to be a grown up 24/7 so uses your DP's as an escape back to being the child. As well as being a manipulative cow!

hatchbackofnotredame · 06/03/2017 13:45

The trouble is, my DPs are in the FOG - fear, obligation and Guilt with a capital G. I can tell my DM feels terrible about the whole thing. This is going to be a process of adjustment for them, too. Sad I'm going to support them as much as I can!

OP posts:
FrenchLavender · 06/03/2017 13:45

I think the time is right for your parents to retire to the seaside or the countryside, far away from DSis's job and to force her to stand on her own two feet.

Miserylovescompany2 · 06/03/2017 13:47

I haven't read the entire thread, 4 pages in. From everything I have read it screams of a personality disorder...that of a sociopath. Very VERY manipulative and clever.

My advice. Don't get drawn into expressing your views as she will twist everything you say until its unrecognisable.

My your parents sake, lets hope she stays no contact.

Fakenewsday · 06/03/2017 13:47

i see some optimism here - your mum has by the sounds of it gradually been trying to roll back the support your DSis is demanding. They've got her out the house M-F, now they're trying to establish a precedent that DSis doesn't get to dictate when she holidays with them. I don't think this is hopeless, you should tell your mum her strategy IS working and the tears, silent treatment and outrageous statements are a backlash against support slowly being rolled back.

Fakenewsday · 06/03/2017 13:49

i'm not sure we can understand completely what it's like to have a DD that you feel isn't successful in their life. I know my P are very in thrall to the idea that it's somehow their fault, genetics and environment and they've created the monster, so it's somehow their problem to deal with. FOG sounds about right!

FrenchLavender · 06/03/2017 14:01

I would also really impress upon your parents that they should not feel guilty and should not waste any time trying to talk her round. They should not apologise or take any blame for this whatsover. They have done nothing wrong.

She's chosen to throw her toys out of the pram, now they need to let her sweat it out by herself. She will be expecting them to fall over themselves to mend this, which would be a disaster for them as it will just perpetuate the whole thing.

She's only refusing to speak to them because she's confident and convinced that they will keep trying. She's punishing them until she is ready to forgive. She's really that entitled and that narcissistic.

They need to hold fast and wait it out. She won't last five minutes with no contact if she really can't cope without them as you say. They need to use this opportunity as a catalyst to bring about some change.

hatchbackofnotredame · 06/03/2017 14:12

fakenews - Yes, you're right about things moving in the right direction, this thread has made me realise that! Smile In relation to your second comment: the thing is, on the outside/material perspective, she is successful. Far more than I am, anyway, though I believe I am happier Smile! She has a great job, great house, great car etc. I am not sure my DP would ever say she was a failure -they are, in fact, very proud of her smallest achievements. I'm proud of that side, too, I just wish it wasn't built on my DP doing all the grunt work behind the scenes.

misery - why do you say sociopath? I don't really know what that is it's a word I know without understanding it apart from in a pop culture serial killer kind of way! You are right that she twists everything - a huge problem for me has been countering a LOT of lies that she has told our parents in order to distance me and ensure I have no influence. I have worked hard to keep lines of communication open. I guess that shows she will try to destroy anyone whom she perceives to be undermining her attachments/ability to avoid living independently. But she's not got superficial charm - she works through guilt - and she's not violent, and she doesn't break the legal laws, and she's the opposite of impulsive, so that doesn't seem very sociopathic? Though, as I said, I have no real knowledge of this subject so I am no doubt very, very wrong in my assumptions about it???

OP posts:
BeerMuggles · 06/03/2017 14:18

Wow, agree with others, as neutrally as possible say that you want to support her to be more independent and support your parents right to have their home back. Really difficult situation! I hope she does have psychotherapy.

fakenewsday · 06/03/2017 14:25

your DSis is not successful in the sense that she keeps telling your P that she can't live an independent life - that's the sense I meant it in. Crippled by her MH whilst somehow managing to function highly at work! I wonder if your mum feels guilty about passing on anxiety etc.

MegaClutterSlut · 06/03/2017 14:28

The more you and your parents pander to her the more she's going to do it. Your DPS need to stand firm, Her getting her washing done is a piss take, her staying weekends is also a piss take. You may find she goes nulcear but if you stick to your guns she may eventually get the message! If she stops talking to you and your DPS, it wouldn't be the the worse thing by the sounds of it

Miserylovescompany2 · 06/03/2017 14:29

Sociopaths go to extraordinary measure to get their needs met. They can even go as far as mimicking illnesses. They can fit into any social environment with ease. They are VERY clever and cunning. They lie, they believe their own lies. When challenged they create drama...lots of DRAMA.

TheNoodlesIncident · 06/03/2017 15:12

I wonder what the catalyst was to their finally saying NO? It must have been very difficult for your parents to take that step, knowing there would be anger as a result...

I'm glad you're intending to support them OP, but I do wonder if perhaps they will have to take more extreme measures in the end to get the peace and tranquility they deserve - moving to another place without telling your sister? Otherwise she might just keep trying to wear them down into doing as she wants again. I doubt anything you say to her would ever have any kind of effect on the way she thinks and feels - she wouldn't give your ideas any kind of headroom. You might as well save your breath and focus on bolstering up your parents as much as possible.

(Manipulation is not a common trait of autism - to be able to genuinely manipulate a person, you have to be able to mentalise what that person is thinking and feeling in the first place, which is something people with ASD struggle with.)

FaithAgain · 06/03/2017 16:09

Obviously no-one can diagnose her over the Internet but she certainly sounds very manipulative, has a sense of superiority...she complains a lot about how other people don't understand her and how things are for her without ever considering the impact of her behaviour on others. I'd say there's either/or sociopathic or narcissistic traits there. this is a good introduction to the behaviour of a sociopath (I read up because MIL behaves in an similar manner. I am currently out of favour and enjoying the peace!)

CoraPirbright · 06/03/2017 16:31

Goodness this all sounds so terrible - your poor parents are being run ragged. And how will this play out? Is your sis expecting to treat them like staff when they are in their 80's? 90's? I am unsure of the various diagnoses put forward here but one thing is for sure, if she is able to function like she can in her professional capacity, there is bugger all diagnoses that can excuse her manipulative and bullying behaviour.

I don't think you are going to get any traction tackling your sis over this so the best way forward would be to strongly back your parents including getting your dad to step up a bit. Perhaps you could suggest some baby steps eg your parents saying they would be delighted to see your sis on x weekend but the washing machine is broken and awaiting a spare part so she will have to do her own washing at her house. Then perhaps that they are going away for a weekend on XX date (or to stay with you?) so she will have to stay at her own house with her partner. Perhaps in this manner they can ease away more gently? Your poor parents - I really do feel for them. They must feel like they have created a monster.

Crickeycrumbsblimey · 06/03/2017 16:33

Although everyone is different I personally don't equate anxiety and depression combined with being a bully. It sounds like she is lashing out because she angry and not because she is anxious. It's quite a difference between internalising anxiety and lashing out because you are sick with worry and bullying everyone into doing what makes life easiest for you.

It is however perfectly possible to be a high achiever who is crippled with anxiety in their personal life however.

pluck · 06/03/2017 17:06

This is brilliant, though! Your sister is proving that she can get by without your parents! Point this out to your DM and DF, so they can stop panicking and really see that it's okay to let her and her husband spend a weekend without... um... "adult supervision."

HopelesslydevotedtoGu · 06/03/2017 19:56

Does she actually believe her behaviour is normal?

If her boss asks her what she does at the weekend, or on holiday, does she say "I go to my parents every weekend/ every holiday"?

Would she say to a friend or colleague "I can't wear my blue dress tomorrow, it needs to be washed and my mum won't wash it until the weekend"

It's so, so bizarre

mygorgeousmilo · 06/03/2017 20:09

Your parents would be doing her a disservice to continue pandering to her. She needs some sharp advice and therapy, pronto.

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