Disabled should work for less than minimum wage

[ElvishArchdruid]

Watching BBC24 and astounded at a woman who has come on to endorse that disabled folk should be paid less than normal (whatever that is) folk.

It's done her daughter the world of good and she thinks it fair as her daughter works at a slower pace with Downs Syndrome. I feel like they're casting a rather big net for a single group that may work slower. But the insinuation that I should be paid less than minimum wage is pretty outrageous. I'm sure there's lots like me who are mentally very capable, but have a body that doesn't co-operate.

A charity has endorsed this position too.

It has left me fuming, the woman by appearances can take the hit of her daughter getting paid less than minimum wage, let alone a living wage, subsidising her daughter possibly.

There is anger whilst I type this, but I can't see myself ever accepting such a suggestion.

I think it's cruel to say their jobs should just disappear because you think they should be paid minimum wage

The lack of minimum wage should. HTH

Love being told I am cruel to people with severe LDs when I have a child with them and am advocating for them.

WateryTart people in residential care get to keep just 24.50 of their benefits

So..Cosy..let me get it straight. you think that money should go to NHS and policing before going towards paying people with disabilities a fair minimum wage?

No, I was putting the question. You said funding would solve the problem and I asked that if there was more money where should it go. Would funding work places for people with LD , who were unable to hold down employment without help, be the best use of public funds.

Someone spoke of the Autistic person with a 150 IQ being paid less. That wouldn't happen. They'd be snapped up for their abilities on the free labour market. And yet only 16% of people with an ASC are in work.

Well..since minimum wage should apply to everyone...yes.

You may have been "putting the question" but its pretty clear you think it wouldnt be.

Maybe that 16% are those without additional LD or sensory needs that are snapped up because of the IQ of 150 or a talent....

and maybe they're not.
Autism and Employment
Guardian Link.

Agreeing with posters that the OP is a gross over-simplification.
It's a really tricky issue and I'm still not sure where I come down on it, but Rosa Monkton and others were not saying disabled people should be paid less generally, but that in some instances it should be possible for disabled people to receive less than the minimum wage where they are not able to perform the role without very significant ongoing support/ resource or at a level of proficiency/productivity that would be say less than 50% of a non-disabled worker.
There are people with disabilities that prevent them being fully competent or efficient in the roles they aspire to. They want the social, intellectual, status and financial benefits of work but few businesses can afford the luxury of an additional body taking minimum or above wage for 50% or less of the productivity of employing a staff member without disabilities.
My daughter is severely disabled, unfortunately her disabilities are such that this won't be relevant to her, but she has more able classmates (special school) that want to work in hair and beauty or the police but lack either the motor skills or intellectual capacity to ever get a job in those spheres, however with a supportive environment they could certainly perform tasks and roles and add value and gain job satisfaction but they will not currently get that opportunity.
It would be very complex to arrive at a way of doing it that was not exploitative or that didn't leave workers vulnerable to losing benefits etc. but I really think the intent is good and proponents brave because they know they will widely abused as the lowest of the low.
There is a broad spectrum of disabilities at my daughter's school although all are at least significantly physically disabled. My daughter also has very severe learning difficulties but particularly around adolescence, her peers who seem to suffer most are those with minor or no learning difficulties but with severe motor problems. I can't imagine the frustration and rage at being unable to do the things and inhabit the world that your siblings and the people on your favourite to programs take for granted. The transition from a stimulating, challenging and supportive specialist school that celebrates every success to being bussed to a day centre twice a week if you are lucky frankly sucks, and that's all many people are looking at.

WateryTart people in residential care get to keep just 24.50 of their benefits and any money they earn in sheltered employment.

If everything else is paid for that sounds ok, it's more than people in nursing homes get, I think. My friend's dad gets to keep £10 of his pension.

Love being told I am cruel to people with severe LDs when I have a child with them and am advocating for them.

Only some of them.

There has to be compromise because people are different. To deprive those in sheltered work of their jobs because they don't get minimum wage is cruel, imo.

It is NOT ok to be told that is ALL there is for you AND you have to do it for less than everyone else. But who has said that these are all the roles available?

They are the most often seen, probably because they are so numerous, many people do such jobs, like them or not!

What is your solution? How will it work? How will it be funded?

If you haven't got a universal working model then why waste so much energy decrying those who are trying to launch a first step... maybe we should design a MN Next Step!

I think there would be some advantages. After all a lot of people volunteer in charity shops and the like and get no pay at all. If it was done on a voluntary basis like hiring more people and dividing the money it could be a good idea. Or in a non profit type set up.

Volunteering isnt the same as having low pay or no wage foisted upon you though.

There has to be compromise because people are different. To deprive those in sheltered work of their jobs because they don't get minimum wage is cruel, imo.

Im not advocating depriving them of their jobs though

Why is it ok for people to only be able to aspire to having £10 a week maximum because they have disabilities.

OP you seem to be taking it very personally, it is clearly not aimed at people with physical disabilities that can be managed in some way. It's aimed at people who would otherwise need too much supervision or would be too slow to do an effective job.

I think it's good that disabled people are in the workplace - it normalises it rather than hiding them away. They have a contribution to make and will probably enjoy it. If they can do the job to the standard required then they should get normal pay. But for those that can't, it seems unfair to cut them out completely. They will still get their benefits so they won't be worse off than if they stayed home and were lonely.

You may have been "putting the question" but its pretty clear you think it wouldnt be.

I don't think those with LD should be denied opportunities at the expense of it being conditional they are paid the NMW.

No they shouldnt be denied the opportunities. And should be paid the NMW.

Im not sure why people think its one or the other. Crappy pay below NMW or no job. It doesnt have to be..and shouldnt be.

Thanks Dawndonna. I am glad to be corrected that there are 16% and not 5% of ASC sufferers in full time work.

I am in a local group people with 'High Functioning' Autism most have us have Degrees 2 even have PHDs . Guess what none of us have full time employment.

It was suggested to one man in the group, by ignorant people (those that have less than half his intellect) that why does he not ask 'Sainsburys' for a Saturday Job collecting Trolleys for them .

The odd thing Dawn is that though i am disgusted with some of the policies towards disabled people coming from this Government . I am politically Centre Right.

Being in favor of Grammar Schools, low taxation E.T.C DOES NOT MEAN I THINK TARGETING IS ACCEPTABLE OF VULNERABLE PEOPLE OF WHICH I AM ONE !

The Government have got so desperate for money they are looking for the equivalent of 5p pieces behind the back of the settee. This means they make no difference to the 'shit' financial situation of the country, but all the difference to the people that bear the brunt of this obsession !

It is a tricky situation.

After my gran retired she got very depressed and lonely-she'd been used to working 3 jobs a day for 40 years.
She was found a place which she worked at three mornings a week and it totally transformed her.
She wasn't very good at reading or writing, and worked very slowly by that time doing anything. She wouldn't have been a very good employee

It was a small factory type place that did various different things-for example they filled crackers for a couple of months.
The people there were mostly people with severe learning difficulties, and her and a couple others in similar circumstances.
They had days where they didn't get too much done, but they had fun, they had time to talk, and the employer was really good at checking up if any of them didn't turn up and making sure all was well with them. Really caring man.
They got a wage that wouldn't have been anything like the minimum wage but they didn't work for that.

That was closed down by the minimum wage and 24 people (not gran by that point) lost their job, but not just that, they lost their social group.

Otoh there are people out there who would use the excuse to pay someone who is disabled less, not because they are doing less work, but simply because.

The question is how can we stop the latter happening, while allowing things like the former to continue. Very difficult.

It was suggested to one man in the group, by ignorant people (those that have less than half his intellect) that why does he not ask 'Sainsburys' for a Saturday Job collecting Trolleys for them.

I have 2 questions.

• what is wrong with this as a job?

• if he cannot get a job 'expected' of a PhD, why not think about another area. Is he better than that role?

Your group has no one with full time employment yet you're against any measures to help you get it.

What do you suggest?

FWIW, I have a degree, 2 masters and a doctorate. I washed dishes and was 'chip girl' at the local fish and chip shop during my second MSc. A job's a job and any employment is better than none.

"It was suggested to one man in the group, by ignorant people (those that have less than half his intellect) that why does he not ask 'Sainsburys' for a Saturday Job collecting Trolleys for them." I have to say I don't see what's wrong with that. A job's a job IMO and as someone who is both disabled and unemployed I regularly make the point that if I could e.g. Go and work on sainsburys checkout then I would, because I need the work and I need the income. But unfortunately those jobs aren't accessible to me.

However I am always a bit at people who, when they find themselves out of work hold out for that dream job or the one which fits their exact qualifications/degree etc and don't even think to look at working for the sake of working. In an interview situation if I had two candidates with the same qualifications, and one had been stacking shelves in sainsburys and the other had been doing nothing I would employ the shelf stacker. And I apply that regardless of disability.

When I first started looking for work no-one would employ me because I'd never worked before. So I went and did telesales for a double glazing company . I used to take home sheets of numbers every night, someone would read them out for me and I'd write them out in Braille to take back the next night to make the calls. I absolutely hated it, but it was a job, and I am positive made an impression when I went for an interview for the company I ultimately went to work for as a secretary.

People with disabilities have a hard time finding work, of course they do. But equally we cannot be too picky if the work which we are able to do happens to come along.

The shops are full of graduates at Christmas time who have failed to get a job out of uni. If they all held out for something worthy of their degree the unemployment rate would be even higher than it already is.

It does not help employing anyone or especially intelligent disabled people in to highly menial jobs !

An highly educated PHD Qualified man with 'Autism' is likely to throw themselves under train rather than face day to day presence of a job that would literally kill them !

That response also indicates two things, firstly a belief that all disabled people are the same . This being it is Ok for some one on the more 'severe' end of mental disability to be given a 'job' why not to highly educated disabled people ! There just the same...

The second thing it indicates is that people don't believe that the concept of a minimum wage should apply equally to everybody regardless of ability or disability.

Finally if we are going down a road of deciding which 'disabled' people should have the same rights as ordinary people and which should just get 'Pocket' money it is disgusting...