Disabled should work for less than minimum wage

[ElvishArchdruid]

Watching BBC24 and astounded at a woman who has come on to endorse that disabled folk should be paid less than normal (whatever that is) folk.

It's done her daughter the world of good and she thinks it fair as her daughter works at a slower pace with Downs Syndrome. I feel like they're casting a rather big net for a single group that may work slower. But the insinuation that I should be paid less than minimum wage is pretty outrageous. I'm sure there's lots like me who are mentally very capable, but have a body that doesn't co-operate.

A charity has endorsed this position too.

It has left me fuming, the woman by appearances can take the hit of her daughter getting paid less than minimum wage, let alone a living wage, subsidising her daughter possibly.

There is anger whilst I type this, but I can't see myself ever accepting such a suggestion.

Disgusted by this.
Disabled people aren't worth less.

When I was 17 I had my wages cut because my employer discovered I was deaf. Back then companies under a certain number of employees weren't subject to discrimination law so they were allowed to do it.

By that point I was already doing over and above what my specified duties were with quite a bit of unpaid overtime.

Yet they were shocked when I left! I was lucky enough to be able to get another job.

Its a fab idea joe?
Really?

So you would be happy to be forced into catering and paid half the going rate?

sibys would that apply to non disabled people too?

My work is quiet sometimes and i sit around. Should i just get paid a fiver?

A different minimum wage for disabled people is of course valuing then less than other members of society.

Valuing people in purely monetary terms is a terrible road to start going down.

It does all depend on how it is done.

Setting up a kind of a Community Cafe (which in effect offers the OT, but which also pays the beneficiary) could perhaps fall outside the minimum wage rules. It would give those who are otherwise struggling to find any work that bit of experience which might just give them a leg up in finding a job idc.

It it's compared to an internship (often unpaid or minimally pairs) or an apprenticeship (where pay is lower) then it doesn't seem such a bad idea.

The BBC didn't headline it in that way.

The full website for the charity - and its aim to open cafes etc all along the south coast with the specific aim of giving opportunities to those who are finding themselves unemployable because of a disability, doesn't seem such a bad one.

Is the problem (that some seem to see with it) to do with 'othering'?

But people take apprenticeships and internships so they can work their way up.

Some people wont be able to do this.

To achieve equality of living standards they will need subsidised. I believe the important thing is if they go somewhere and do a full days work they should recieve a wage like any other person's.

It depends whether people see treating people equally as the important thing or that a person should be valued purely by their profitability. Which is a terrible minefield in itself.

And yes, its othering.

finding themselves unemployable because of a disability

This is the problem.
The blame squarely on the person with the disability.
They don't find themselves unemployable.
They are deemed unemployable.
Its not because of their disability
Its because of attitudes towards disability.

And again with the catering. WTF is it with catering and disabled people?

Years ago Deaf men were allowed to go into the print trade or become carpenters. These were their allotted roles. Fine trades. But others get to choose.

Resources are put into catering for disabled people. That means disabled people are pushed that way.
No money is wasted on supporting disabled people who don't want to clean up other people's dirty plates.

Who on here who thinks this is a good idea would be happy for their kids to be pushed into a washing up job?
Not as a lark whilst saving up for their gap year, I mean for LIFE?

Why is ok for our kids if its not for yours?

It's a difficult one. To expand on my earlier post. D is 30 years old and has autism, he also has quite severe learning difficulties.

A charity has supported him in work over the years. These jobs have been simple manual work - portering, kitchen work and warehouse work. His behaviour can be erratic and he gets upset easily at change or if he can't understand what's happening. His employers understand this when they take him on and the other workers are usually supportive and a support worker from the charity calls in regularly. His wages are paid mainly by the charity. There is no way he could work in the normal course of events. But he loves what he does and the benefit to his mental health is s good. When he's between jobs he's so low and unhappy.

I wish there was a simple answer but for him supported work at under minimum wage is good. His benefits aren't affected, he lives in sheltered housing.

Presumably there's no reason why an initiative to give a kind of work (or should that be work experience) cannot run in parallel with any other actions needed to shift attitudes in the workplace?

Or is the very existence of such an employer actually impeding the chances of others?

Why cant they give him supported work st minimum wage?

I don't want my kid resigned to a life of wiping up other people's food waste. That's fine for those who want to do that. She won't.

auntie I believe that it does impede progress in other sectors.
If you look for opportunities for people with LDs you will find a huge bias towards catering and gardening.
I am pretty sure that this started with good intentions and ground breaking initiatives to help people with LDs find employment.
But now they have morphed into a system that decides that is what disabled people do.
If you think about it its ridiculous. Do we think that people with LDS are one lump who think and feel the same way? That they are all inherently suited to working in large kitchens or garden centres?

If we do we are admitting that we believe people with LDs are not individuals with the same range of feelings and desires as the rest of the population.

I have seen threads on MN where MC mothers are having massive meltdowns because their DDs have come home and expressed a wish to go into hairdressing or child care.
Posters join in with the gnashing of teeth and renting of garments.
Apparently going into the service industry is their worst nightmare for their children. And they are not shy about giving reasons why they think that.
Demeaning
Low status
Low paid
A waste of their talents
Embarrassing

But when it comes to my child or the children/loved ones of posters on here its fine. In fact, its so desirable that we should be grateful for the chance and not even expect them to be paid the going rate.

Why cant they give him supported work st minimum wage?

Because that would limit the number of people they can support. He is very comfortably off, full benefits, sheltered housing paid for, 2 holidays a year, in house support worker who encourages a social life for the residents. He doesn't need the money but he does need the job. It isn't a back and white issue in his circumstances.

It is really. He could receibe less benefits and a decent wage like others do when they start work.

If there an issue with funding then that needs addressed rather than paying someine less than mininum wage.

When people with severe learning disabilities leave education, the options for them are generally grim. They need as much anyone else, activities that are meaningful to them.
In the BBC article Rosa Monckton talks about people like her daughter sitting in front of the TV all day because there is nothing else provided for them to do. I worry what will happen when my child leaves education as the options locally are for my son, awful.
What she is suggesting though, is not the right way to enable meaningful activity. If someone is doing a job they should be paid the going rate for that job. If someone with learning disabilities despite reasonable adjustments, is unable to work, they should be provided for including provision for meaningful activity.

Yes. He is doing a job. And he needs adjustments to do it, but is still doing it.

I don't want my kid resigned to a life of wiping up other people's food waste.

But it's just that is it?

There was a 'community cafe' set up near our work and the employees would take food orders, prepare food, take payments and , yes clear up afterwards. I assume they also had to order stock, and follow hygiene requirements etc.

It also gave them the opportunity to socialise and gain other work related skills.

It isn't just clearing away other people crap as you put it.

It is really. He could receibe less benefits and a decent wage like others do when they start work.

There isn't really a job. If he left tomorrow they wouldn't employ anyone else. What he does could easily be covered by the other workers. The charity persuades places to take their clients on.

So..they are doing a job and should get minimum wage like anyone else.

I think there is no argument for minimum wage not applying to everyone.

They should advertise it differently then if it isn't really a job.

Or pay minimum wage if it is.

I can see that the idea would benefit a small proportion of people with disabilities in the short term but the whole idea is so short sighted. It puts all disabled people into one big group i.e. assumes that we are all less efficient at our jobs and can't get one unless we are paid less. It also doesn't take into account the huge negative effect it would have in the future for all people with disabilities. Whilst initially it would only effect those who aren't in current employment, it would soon result in wage cuts for those that are because it would effectively be considered reasonable practice to do that. A policy such as this would be so open to abuse and a massive step backwards. I am quite disgusted that a charity supports the idea.

I have a child with similar high needs btw.

whilst initially it would only effect those who aren't in current employment, it would soon result in wage cuts for those that are because it would effectively be considered reasonable practice to do that.

So true

I find it difficult. My sister has LD and other disabilities, 28, never worked and craves the social contact of work. She has even (in east London) found herself unable to volunteer as the market is so saturated with people using it to add to job opportunities. Even the charity shop was full of uni students/ people who were fit and retired/ parents filling time whilst children were at school... so the extra time it took to explain tasks or till train etc just wasn't worth their while... 2 shops let her go (ha, they were bloody charities FOR people with similar needs!).

When I worked at Tesco there was a scheme where Tesco met some wages, and a charity met the other half. I don't know if that still goes, it what it did do was open eyes. Once the scheme has a few people in people realise that working with disabled adults can really work, they see the value and then more are employed through other routes as it's all suddenly making sense and people see how roles fit, rather than being scared of the unknown. Myths are busted.

I don't know if a scheme where lower pay and NMW being met through benefits would work.

With all due respect mrsdv people would pay your son the same for music if he produces it as well as any one else, I think this is for cases like my sister when the roles desired cannot be done the same way as others. She loves people facing social contact, but with her communication and learning needs she cannot be independent in the role ever. She does not have a talent that really is on a par with others or helps her excel, she cannot draw, order things, speak well, process, make music etc. As an employer she does not make economic sense to invest in so she sits in a flat most days lonely. She'd sign up to a work scheme tomorrow, with all the talk about getting esa and how had it is ironically she hates not working and she's never had to go to an interview or anything. She's never been to the job centre