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Original poster

Call the Midwife - FGM

229 replies

Littlepiglittlepig3letmeIN · 26/02/2017 21:08

At first I thought the programe makers were doing a good job at highlighting how wrong this practice is, and yet at the last moment, they normalized it by making out it's tradition.
I felt they missed a good opportunity to get through to the right people.

The programme makers can try and dress it up however they want - trying to make out it's tradition and it's the women that facilitate it.
Women may carry it out, but
It's men who are behind it.

It's heartbreaking to think that even in this day and age, little girls are still being butchered and disfigured by these barbaric animals.

OP posts:
venusinscorpio · 27/02/2017 01:44

Why do you think they think there are benefits?

CatchingBabies · 27/02/2017 01:46

Because they see it as cleaner, looking better, protecting their daughters from rape, ensuring their daughters are not promiscuous, helps them get a husband etc. Loads and loads of reasons why they genuinely believe it's better. Of course none are true and it's a horrific and completely needless procedure. But women who undergo this do then go and take their daughters to have the same procedure, they sadly really do see it as the best thing to do for them.

CatchingBabies · 27/02/2017 01:47

In some cultures it's also seen as more feminine, very strangely as surely as intact labia is about as feminine as you can get!

venusinscorpio · 27/02/2017 01:49

Why do you think they think those things?

venusinscorpio · 27/02/2017 01:51

Do you not think that in a patriarchy, as you acknowledged, what men wanted might have played a part?

CatchingBabies · 27/02/2017 01:53

Because it's been fed to them over generations. I see where you're going with this but again you cannot put all the blame on men. It might be a male tradition that started it and it might not, no one knows that. But it isn't a helpful view and it certainly isn't going to help solve it. It's not about who is to blame it's about how we educate people to stop this. The fact is many women strongly see it as their choice, they want FGM perform and they support the practice. Wading in and telling them it's all because the men started this isn't going to get through to anyone as that's not how they see it and to really solve it and to really engage and help these women we have to understand how they see it.

venusinscorpio · 27/02/2017 01:57

It's really interesting how you're trying to deflect the blame away from men.

But yes, I see where you're going with this and I personally agree that we should try to educate people to stop it.

CatchingBabies · 27/02/2017 01:57

I have said all along that what men wanted played a part, I have never disputed the fact that male preferences are a contributory factor. I have stated that it's not the only factor. I have stated that today men's prefer what they consider to be normal. I have stated that assigning blame is neither helpful or benefits these women in any way and so trying to assume or think we know why this started we should listen to what the women who have undergone this are telling us and tackle those reasons with education. I'm feeling like a broken record now and I'm going to bed.

I don't disagree with you I just don't think you can totally blame one gender without evidence when even if male preference stated this initially those men are long dead and the reasons why it continues today are far more complex then that.

CatchingBabies · 27/02/2017 01:59

I'm not deflecting blame from anyone, I'm saying both genders have a part to play and assigning blame solves nothing. Good night was interesting chatting with you x

venusinscorpio · 27/02/2017 02:01

What, so all men in those cultures now don't really approve of FGM? They're in a good position to stop it, don't you think? Interesting.

CatchingBabies · 27/02/2017 02:03

Men in those cultures approve of it yes as to them it's normal. Women in those cultures again approve of it as to them it's normal. Both men and women are in a good position to stop it, both need educating. Now I really need to go to bed.

venusinscorpio · 27/02/2017 02:19

The point is it's done for men, not women.

FreeNiki · 27/02/2017 03:01

I watched a documentary on it a year or more ago. In an African country one of the young women had not undergone fgm. Far from being grateful she was disappointed by it as no one would marry her as it couldn't be guaranteed she was a virgin.

She said if she had a daughter she would not make the same mistake and would "have her sewn up tight."

It is often promoted by women most vehemently. Quite how you change that attitude is beyond me....and yes it is done for men.

identityhidden · 27/02/2017 06:19

Tinsel I'm not sure what you mean by report though? Who would report me and to whom? The only people that know I've had the surgery are my GP surgery and gynaecology/urology consultants - does one of them report it - which would be odd, given GP did the referral and gynaecology carried it out?

Or to give a real life example, I had to be catheterised a few weeks ago and the GP/nurse that did this could tell I had surgery in the past (they sensitively said my anatomy was slightly different to how one might expect) so would they be the ones to report it ?

I'm not against the idea per se just wondering what you mean. If it does go onto prevent fgm then that's obviously only a good thing.

Railgunner1 · 27/02/2017 07:40

It is often promoted by women most vehemently. Quite how you change that attitude is beyond me....and yes it is done for men.

I'm a bit ignorant... But what is in it for men? I sort of understand the 'guarantee' of virginity, but... Men surely can't have much "fun" with a sewn-up ???

DesolateWaist · 27/02/2017 07:41

I think though venus this is where the pubic hair removal analogy is helpful.

That started in porn so that the watchers, mainly men, could see what was going on better. This then became the expectation and preference of some men. With porn becoming more readily available more men held that opinion.
Now many women do it through their own choice as they feel that it is cleaner, looks better, is more hygienic. The women who do it argue it is their choice, and it is.
However it started because men like it.

venusinscorpio · 27/02/2017 08:56

Yes, I agree Desolate.

BartholinsSister · 27/02/2017 09:08

Body hair removal has a feature of various cultures long before porn became so popular with the public. Besides, there are so many women in porn who are not shaven that that argument is invalid anyway.

unlucky83 · 27/02/2017 09:25

rail type III - is where they just leave a small hole. It is a way of making sure a girl is a virgin (I would say originally a practice instigated by men ...so they don't end up supporting another man's offspring) -
When they are married either the man forces (tears) his way in - apparently often helped by the use of a knife..or by the man or a midwife - but that implies the man isn't 'potent' enough ...so is kept quiet. However some men can never penetrate their wives - not for lack of trying I suspect - and some women get pregnant without penetration then need cutting open for childbirth...it is horrific.
And causing as for the rape thing - if men can manage to penetrate their wives (supposedly without cutting...) surely the girls can still be raped - just everyone would know they had been...
This is like breast ironing - supposedly to protect girls from rape but actually is mainly so that they are a virgin when married - to protect the family name - which is (again) so a man doesn't end up supporting another man's offspring...

littleducks · 27/02/2017 09:26

The hospital Dr case which led to an attempted prosecution was a big step back. The same Trust has a FGM clinic which had done pretty groundbreaking work on surgically correcting problems caused by FGM and arranging counselling and education. The case led to fear and confusion among staff.

People need to move away from the idea that it's done in mud huts with rusty implements too. This is just one narrative. It is also done with anaesthetics in clean hospitals by qualified doctors. We need to be clearer that both are damaging and both are unacceptable.

unlucky83 · 27/02/2017 09:57

I'll make that clearer - we need to take our 'western' thinking about the value of women out of the equation when we think about, look to tackle issues like this.

It isn't about protecting the girls from the trauma of rape ...it is about making sure that they are marriageable - protecting the family name. (probably a valid reason in cultures where women are dependent on men to provide for them - not so much in the UK in the present day, especially with DNA testing and contraceptives )
I think multiple episodes of cutting/tearing of your genitals, possibly married to someone you have no choice over -who could then go to commit effectively multiple rapes within marriage (you can't say no to your husband...) would be equally if not more traumatic...
This reminds me of a story about a refugee camp in Greece about a year ago - some men ('heroes') stopped another sexually assaulting a 7yo girl. When the heroes were interviewed any possible effect on the girl wasn't mentioned, it was all about the perpetrator was Iraqi and they were Afghan (or vice versa) about their honour - rather than saving a girl from trauma, seems she wasn't really important Sad.

Original poster
Littlepiglittlepig3letmeIN · 27/02/2017 09:59

When they are married either the man forces (tears) his way in - apparently often helped by the use of a knife..or by the man or a midwife - but that implies the man isn't 'potent' enough ...so is kept quiet. However some men can never penetrate their wives - not for lack of trying I suspect - and some women get pregnant without penetration then need cutting open for childbirth...it is horrific.

That's beyond horrific. How bloody painful for the woman.

OP posts:
Wauden · 27/02/2017 10:29

BonnieF asked:

So what is the real reason for the lack of FGM prosecutions?

Is it really due to the practical difficulties in obtaining evidence against the abusers and enablers, or is "cultural sensitivity", ie professionals are terrified of being accused of racism, so they won't jeopardise their careers?

BertieBotts · 27/02/2017 10:59

It is a purity/ownership thing, but also, I'd imagine that there are some grim myths about normal vaginas being "loose" or "baggy" much like people say about women who are promiscuous, have had multiple children, or are older.

StepAwayFromTheEcclesCakes · 27/02/2017 12:48

I watched a very informative documentary on FGM which explained it. It had a group of women who set up a tent decorated in vulvas on South bank and invited passers by to come in and learn about it. The programme went on to talk to victims and showed how education was going on in areas of the country where girls were deemed at risk, it was a harrowing programme but what stayed with me was the education aimed at men, the group took a bunch of guys to a room where they showed them photos of uncut vulvas and then cut ones, they had sponges fashioned like vulvas and took a pair of garden shears to them to show the guys what exactly it involved, some of them were sick. all of them left saying they would never let that happen to any daughters they had and would think differently about it when it came to choosing a wife. IMO this sort of education aimed at the teenage boys in these communities is the way forward.

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