Call the Midwife - FGM

[Littlepiglittlepig3letmeIN]

At first I thought the programe makers were doing a good job at highlighting how wrong this practice is, and yet at the last moment, they normalized it by making out it's tradition.
I felt they missed a good opportunity to get through to the right people.

The programme makers can try and dress it up however they want - trying to make out it's tradition and it's the women that facilitate it.
Women may carry it out, but
It's men who are behind it.

It's heartbreaking to think that even in this day and age, little girls are still being butchered and disfigured by these barbaric animals.

No one on here as claimed to be an expert.

I beg to differ.
My comment was to Desolate who seemed to think I shouldn't be saying anything at all because, her words other people are more knowledgeable than you They have had 'safeguarding training herself included.

Like a lot of people, I too have had safeguarding training (who hasn't these days) and yes it covered FGM.
I wouldn't say it makes a person particularly knowledgeable about FGM.

Someone who is working in the communities and with women who have experienced FGM is more than likely fairly knowledgeable about it.
People who perform a tick box training excercise once a year, in which one of the modules covers FGM?
not so much.

Where has anyone claimed to be an expert?

Not in your opinion, but in actual words?

I agree with a PP that if anyone is spoiling for a fight, its you.

You came on here with your frothing indignation and expected a whole thread of "OMG Yes you are so right,all men are bastards" and you didnt get that.

That all of us who know about this, have had training on it are doing nothing.

But your wording (rather arrogantly) assumed that I hadn't had any training on it and therefore wasn't allowed an opinion.

I think you need to revisit your training as you don't seem to have taken very much away from it.

Pity your pupils. You sound a joy.

I don't think defending myself is spoiling for a fight.

Speeding is extremely easy to prosecute. It's easy to detect (speed cameras), it's easy to identify perpetrators (people have to register as the owner/named driver of a car, cars have numberplates) and it's objective (speed is measurable, the limit is a number).

The reasons why FGM is difficult to prosecute are numerous and have already been discussed but just to compare, it's not easy to detect, when it is detected it's often years later which is no good. It's not easy to identify who was responsible partly because of this later detection problem but also because whole communities often either approve or see the practice as necessary so often protect perpetrators, and objectivity, well, I would have said yes of course it's objective, it's easy to tell if it's been done or not but in fact as the one failed prosecution shows we're actually a bit shit at objectively defining it as well.

As for "large numbers of children being taken into care" the care system in this country already can't cope with the number of children currently in it. Where would you physically put them? How are you going to magic up hundreds of thousands of foster or institutional care places overnight? (Not to mention the trauma and damage that being in care causes to children). Did you know, BTW, they also say the same thing about sexual abuse :( If we really put everything we had into investigating and prosecuting sexual abuse of children the care system would collapse. There are too many.

There is evidence that people in Europe are now bringing their daughters to London to be cut as it's cheaper than travelling to Africa with vertualy no chance of being prosecuted. I'll look for a link in the morning

fakename, that is disturbing.

My comment was to Desolate who seemed to think I shouldn't be saying anything at all because, her words other people are more knowledgeable than you They have had 'safeguarding training herself included.

If you are going to quote me then please quote me correctly. I am not the only person here who has said that you sound like you don't know much about it.
I will say again. I am far from an expert but I have had specific training, not just a passing mention in safeguarding training.

Also, please stop with the personal attacks.

On a different but connected topic I'm amazed that circumcision in male infants is widely accepted. On the subject of fgm I miss d the episode but from the comments it sounds as though it represented the views in the 60s .

I'd appreciate it if you left me alone now.

I still stand by my comment that you need to revisit your training as you needed to question if it was illegal.

I'm not the one making personal attacks saying that you pity my pupils.

Surprised at comparisons with labiaplasty and piercings - I had a labiaplasty in 2011 through the NHS , that's surely not FGM at all? I was anaesthetised and cared for by highly trained surgeons/ ward nurses and then district nurse and midwife (surprisingly, GP surgery were at a loss as had never dealt with labial/clitoral stitches before so got midwife who'd obviously more experience involved).

The two things just seem worlds apart. I had a choice, I was informed of benefits vs risks and it was never to make me 'pure' , if anything I was told having all the damaged tissue off would help me to have a sex life.

In terms of training on FGM maybe it depends on who provides the training, I have been 'trained' but that was 3 slides on an elearning programme and instruction to go to a manager if I was concerned. More like awareness and written as if it's something I would be highly unlikely to ever come across.. I work with adults though so perhaps there's more education on it when you work with younger women. I hope so anyway - I would feel at a loss professionally if it was something I ever encountered at work.

Probably because the physical effects aren't as debilitating in male circumcision, Bettyspants.
Men may think differently.

And still you keep going.
Please Leave Me Alone.
Please.

So you can make personal comments and misquote me but I have to drop it because you ask nicely.m?

I think you are right about the training Identity. I does get mentioned in safeguarding training but I had an afternoon session, a good few hours long from a specialist. Not that it makes me an expert, far from it.

The two things just seem worlds apart. I had a choice, I was informed of benefits vs risks and it was never to make me 'pure

Why is this so hard for people to get?
If you capture EVERYONE who has has their female genitals altered, then you won't be losing girls who have had forced FGM through the net

What you (and others) are suggesting is that front line HCP/Education providors should make "judgement calls" instead of complying with universal reporting. I don't see how you can argue that that is a good idea! FGM comes in many forms, its too open to interpretation if you are expecting people to judge what "counts" before even flagging it!

It is no inconvenience to the women who have had over 18 piercings or labiaplasty to be temporarily reported and then discounted, Vs the effects on girls and women who would fall through the net if FGM reporting wasn't ALL fgm, and not "do you think it's the serious kind of FGM" reporting.

On a different but connected topic I'm amazed that circumcision in male infants is widely accepted.

You're right! Its a different topic a topic which has plenty of its own threads that aren't derailed by FGM talk, yet you cannot have a single thread on MN about FGM without someone bringing up male circumcision.

You have been crashingly rude to people and now are playing the victim because you have been called on it?

I also find your comment about people who are involved in FGM being unlikely to watch CTM as being appallingly racist.

I'm a midwife, I thought they did it really well actually. Better than expected.

I have come across FGM and the women DO defend the practice and strongly see it as something they choose. Now I agree that education is the way to go as many do not realise it's not "normal" and the consequences of having it performed.

However it's not as black and white to say it's done for the men and they are the ones instigating it. Remember these men only see women that have had FGM performed as it's done very young usually and so it's normal to them also. They suffer the same lack of education and knowledge that the women do.

Oh and haven't read the whole thread so someone probably already answered but yes it would be a child protection issue, certainly if the mother had a female child.

Its intersting to hear a midwife's pov.

I agree with Vestal Virgin. There is more social pressure on women to shave their pubic hair for instance.

Now as for education. Many people are willing to take NHS advice on obesity and froth about how much it costs the NHS.

Now the NHS is starting to warn about how shaving off pubic hair can cause infections and a higher risk of catching an STI. But ppl are less willing to take this on board because it doesnt fit with the aesthetic of how women are now expected to look. But women are expected to be slim both by other women and men. So the obesity advice is accepted more readily while the advice not to shave off pubic hair is sidelined and ignored. Yet both pieces of advice both come from the NHS.

So sometimes education does not work even on adults

Catching, although utterly different comparison could be drawn between FGM and the removal of pubic hair. We are getting to a situation where young men have only seen waxed women and this is what they expect. Women do it to themselves and through their own choice.
I am not saying they are the same but I think the comparison helps to see how women can defend it.

Yes it is women who perpetuate this, but don't you understand that this is done for men, however much men might say they have changed?

This is caused by patriarchy, obviously, as is labioplasty and other ways in which women mutilate themselves and each other in order to be fuckable for men.

With FGM, it is just much more obvious.

All this shit is done by women, to women, and only very rarely do men admit that it is they who enforce it.

Thank you Vestal I thought I'd wandered into a parallel universe.