I know this has been done to death... transactivism v feminism

[Lo24]

I know, I know...

It's just no matter what I read or who I talk to I still can't find an answer that makes sense to me.

I'm happy for anyone to be whoever they want. I don't believe the blue brain/pink brain crap (science doesn't support it) but I still support anyone who feels they need to transionition (fully or otherwise).

It seems so awful that (amoung other human rights violations) Trump is removing laws that protect trans kids. But the argument (the only one I see thrown over the Internet, bashing radical feminists) is the idea anyone who feels like a woman is one, whether or not they transion in any form.

I have 4 young girls. I don't want them left at risk because teachers can not challenge boys who follow them into the toilets because that would be transphobia. If they ever have to (god forbid) access female prisons, dv shelters, psychiatric hospital I want them to have protected female only space.

Yet mention this to transactivists and it's transphobic and makes me a radical feminist. I don't particularly care about the rad fem argument that trans renforces general roles, or that it's body dismorphia and should be treatment by mental health professionals, I don't care for Germaine Greer's stance on the 'issue'. So I don't have a radical stance on this. I just don't want female rights protection eroded. I'm sure any trans person who has transioned in some form won't pose a risk, but if anyone who terms themselves a woman must be allowed access to female only spaces then that protects predatory men from being challenged also. But I can't say that or I get accused of accusing trans people of being predators. Ahhh!!!!

Anyone know the answer? Is there any form or transgender activism that recognises that eroding female protections doesn't help trans women either? Or any literature by anyone trans that gives a better argument than the 'everyone who says they are a woman is one and if you don't agree you are a bigot' line of thought. Help!

You might be interested in Magdalen Berns's YouTube channel, User. She's around your age and makes videos standing up for women against transactivism.

I also think that the current trans movement does nothing at all for people who genuinely have body dysphoria, don't want to steamroller over women and used to just be quietly accepted in the women's toilets.

The movement has pushed so far, and so unreasonably, that women are now having to push back and that's going to hurt the people who really need trans rights far more than all the activists.

Oh, and one last factor that I think might be important. In my twenties, I wasn't as aware of the effects of sex discrimination as I am now, thirty years later. At that age, I was earning as much as my male colleagues, was sure I had the same career opportunities ahead of me, and as a not-particularly-gender-conforming-person (good at maths and could read a map ) I assumed that most of the discrimination belonged with my mother's generation. Not so. The effects became less subtle with time, particularly post-motherhood. I never expected that. So the experience of gendered discrimination makes the older me more wary than the younger me would ever have been.

Lo: "Bbc ok fair enough. I was just meaning it's not a set roll like we see in western society's world over, or historically. There are matriarchal communities, so different definition of women. And not all cultures have dinstinct roles based on sex, there are some tribes where it's more interchangeable and no value is attached to any role."

What's your academic background, Lo? Are you an anthropologist? I ask because I have a friend who is a professor of anthropology, and from what I gather from her, you are factually incorrect on a whole number of levels. There are some instances of reasonably egalitarian societies, and there are matrilineal societies, but outside of mythology (the Amazons) there are, as far as I know, no documented instances of matriarchal societies. Also, you said upthread that there were societies where men looked after infants and women hunted - again, what societies are these (names, dates, locations)? According to my friend, while some roles (e.g. weaving) get ascribed to different sexes according to culture (Medieval England weaving is men's work, modern Navajo culture weaving is women's work), there are some roles which are pretty much fixed across cultures. Women mind small children (barring a few cases in modern industrial societies) - because women can breast feed and men can't (damn that pesky biology) and men hunt big game because they're stronger and faster and not trying to do it while carrying children (damn that pesky biology yet again.)

The idea of the young being afraid of being labelled as transphobic, and stifling debate because of fear, I find that truly terrifying. I don't mean to sound dramatic but fecking hell.

I also think that the current trans movement does nothing at all for people who genuinely have body dysphoria, don't want to steamroller over women and used to just be quietly accepted in the women's toilets.

Agree completely.

user147 Many people I know would equate critiquing trans people in toilets according to their chosen gender, to disagreeing with same-sex relationships or gay rights

What happens in your head when a female friend breaks down and tells you how she's been raped and fucking hates men/penises? What happens in your head when you see a female friend physically gird against flinching when a male comes too near her because her husband punches her? Where are your loyalties?

user - when you say " it will just be accepted that your gender is determined by your brain, rather than your genitals" what does this actually mean? What would make a brain female rather than male, or rather than simply a human brain which could come in any one of a vast range of personalities?

And how does sexual attraction fit into this? I happen to rather like penises. For this reason I would be totally uninterested in a transman. Genitals matter to me very much in this respect. Do you really see your generation coming to think of being a heterosexual woman as being someone who is attracted to people who "present as male" regardless of whether they have penises or vulvas?

And you need to look again as to why the NFL and other major sporting agencies are supporting pro trans agendas. Which big white transwoman is supporting it? Who owns NFL and all the others?

User, you might want to read this:

wholewoman.com.au/feminism/trans-identity-within-womens-spaces

"I wonder what trans rights will look like in 10, 15, 30 years, as the people around me seem to think it will go the same way as gay rights, in that it won't be a big deal in years to come, it will just be accepted that your gender is determined by your brain, rather than your genitals."
See, there's the problem - the belief that gender is internal. Sex is internal. Personality is internal. Gender is imposed from outside. Gender is society's expectations and limitations imposed on you according to your genitals. It's pigeon-holing - society looks at us and puts us in the box marked 'girl' or 'boy'. And as we grow inside our boxes, we are stunted like bonsai; our roots restricted by the box and our branches and leaves clipped off by conditioning and grooming and the steady drip, drip, drip of conformity. Until we get to the point of taking it for granted.

I was reading another thread, about shaving your armpits and pubes. And people were expressing genuine disgust at women not shaving their armpits. They had grown up taking it for granted that that was what women do. No question as to why they did it, they just totally accepted that that was what was done. But, but, but - it's not what all women do. It's prevalent in the UK, a fashion we adopted fom the US to emulate filmstars in their sleeveless gowns on the red carpet almost a century ago. Underarm hair would have shown wearing such a dress, was felt to be untidy/sexual and so was deemed necessary to remove. This fashion never really spread to the continent, and I shared beaches in the 1980s with unshaven Italian, German and French women. And women shaving need razors, and an industry likes to make money, so there's now quite a lot of factors reinforcing the 'women shave their underarms' assumption. And gender is a lot like that. Fashions that became dogma that became incontrovertible gospel that nobody can question.

Gender is not determined by your brain or your genitals. It is decided by society and it's expectations of how someone with a particular set of genitals is allowed to behave in order to maintain the status quo. A truly progressive society would reject gender and encourage people, regardless of their genitals, to wear what they liked, play with what toys they liked, studied what they liked, worked in jobs that they liked, lived how they liked. Instead, transgenderism insists that if you're not comfortable in your society-provided box, you will be grudgingly allowed to climb out of that box and straight into the other one. And the status quo is maintained .

Why is it that on these threads, people only ever talk about MTFs (i.e. transwomen).

Many posters have suggested that only people who were born biologically female should be able to access female-only spaces (loos, women's prisons, etc.) and transwomen should have to use services aimed at men. Based on that logic, I you must also believe that FTMs (i.e. transmen) should be able to (indeed, must) access female-only spaces.

Many transmen have a full beard, deep voice and (if they have opted for and had lower surgery) a penis. After a year or two on testosterone, they are usually indistinguishable, when clothed, from people who were born biologically male, even to the trained eye.

I would suggest that, if you are worried about predatory cisgender men accessing the women's bathrooms under the pretence of being a transwomen, then the argument that access to bathrooms should be determined by biological sex at birth could backfire. All a predatory cisgender man would have to do would be to claim he is a transman (i.e. born female) to gain access to the women's bathrooms - he wouldn't even need to put on a dress and make up!

Then we get on to the question of intersex people (who constitute ~1.7% of the population, which is in line with the proportion of redheads, for context). Where should they go...?

And we're back to restricting the debate to who pees where ...

rightsaidfrederickII the reason I (I can't speak for anyone else) have only addressed transwomen and not transmen is because transmen are not insisting that they have full access to female-only spaces. Transwomen, fuelled by the male privilege instilled in them as they were raised as boys, are the ones causing me concern, not the transmen. If men have a problem with transmen I'm sure they are well able to raise the matter themselves.

WhereYouLeftIt - transmen are insisting that they have access to male-only spaces, not female-only spaces, because they are male.

However, if you are happy with transmen being in male-only spaces, then logic dictates that you must also be happy with transwomen being in female-only spaces, unless you want to be deeply inconsistent.

You can't have it both ways...

"transmen are insisting that they have access to male-only spaces"
Are they? Can't say I've heard anything about that, but then I don't concern myself with male-only spaces.

As a female, I am concerned with female-only spaces. Male-only spaces are the concern of males. Being concerned about one thing does not mean I must (or even can) be concerned about everything.

Its not a case of having it both ways. I couldn't care less where transmen go. I am fine with them using the women's facilities. If they want to use the men's, that's between them and men. Not my issue. It's men I don't want to share with. And very few transpeople pass so well that you don't know.

Ooh I must be getting tired (well it is nearly 2am) I skimmed over it and missed most of it.

"Many posters have suggested that only people who were born biologically female should be able to access female-only spaces (loos, women's prisons, etc.) and transwomen should have to use services aimed at men. Based on that logic, I you must also believe that FTMs (i.e. transmen) should be able to (indeed, must) access female-only spaces."

"Many posters have suggested that only people who were born biologically female should be able to access female-only spaces (loos, women's prisons, etc.)"
Yes, many posters have suggested that.

"and transwomen should have to use services aimed at men."
I'm too tired to go back and read everyone's post, but I don't remember that being suggested by other posters, and I certainly didn't suggest it. Actually I think we probably require additional services (prisons etc.).

"Based on that logic,"
Which you have misread, therefore it's not logic and there's nothing to base anything on.

"you must also believe that FTMs (i.e. transmen) should be able to (indeed, must) access female-only spaces."
I must do nothing of the sort.

"transmen are insisting that they have access to male-only spaces, not female-only spaces, because they are male."
They are not male. Transmen are females, who have transitioned to transmen. They remain biologically female. It is difficult, keeping the sex words and gender words separate. That's why people talk at cross-purposes on this matter, because everyone thinks that everyone else is using the words the same as them, when they're not.

Thank you to the people who suggested resources for me to look at, I'll definitely look into those!

To make it clear, I was commenting more on the complete lack of discussion that exists around my age group, rather than my personal opinion. You cannot disagree or question anything around the subject without being considered a bigot - especially at universities - a questioning that I think is very important.

The overwhelming opinion is that it is none of our business what someone else wishes to do with their life, and we should respect that, to whatever extent that leads to. In answer to one question, the people I have spoken to do not think about the intricate details, or the physical implications of sex/gender (sorry for using gender when I meant physical sex earlier, I'm not sure on my terms!) or the impact on other people, they concentrate solely on the individual's right to do whatever they wish. Whilst I will respect someone else's choices completely, the rights of all people need to be considered, and one person cannot invalidate the rights of a whole group. And I refuse to celebrate individuals like Caitlin Jenner, simply for being trans (a popular figure at uni), when Caitlin is, in my opinion, an awful human being for numerous reasons.

Personally, I do think it comes down to naivety - many women my age are theoretically aware that bad things can happen, but it doesn't quite connect that those bad things could happen to them.

Perhaps as my friends get older, these views will change - I do think it is very much to do with following the crowd, so to speak. It is easier to be a sheep, than speak up.

Cheers user. Welcome to Mumsnet, one of the few places on the Internet where these conversations are possible.

There are plenty of us here who aren't mums, it's definitely not compulsory! Do stick around and browse the Feminism boards.

Lo24

If you're interested in reading what transwomen who don't agree with what the transactivists are saying, 'a guy called Helen' is another good one. Both she and Miranda Yardley have been subjected to abuse and harassment campaigns for their views.

user1479426600

It is interesting to me how a lot of younger people see transgenderism being aligned to general LGB issues. The transgender community tried very hard to push that correlation. Many in the LGB community, particularly lesbians, now want to drop the T. Largely because of transwomen pressurising them into sex (see cotton ceiling). Because they are women and therefore their male genitalia is female genitalia (lady stick, girl dick).

As lesbians keep saying, they have been told since the dawn of time that all they need is a good 'dicking' and then they won't be lesbian anymore. Same message, different clothes (and gender dysphoria clearly being entirely absent).

Gender dysphoria is a real and crippling illness. If presenting as the opposite sex helps to alleviate that, I'm fine with it. We have been sharing a bathroom with people with it for years with no trouble. But they are now in a minority. They couldn't care less about access, they just want to be left alone.

If you are frightened of being called transphobic and a bigot it for voicing legitimate concerns, consider the no platforming of anyone who has expressed the smallest criticism of the ideology, consider the petition to stop the transgender documentary a few weeks ago, consider the vandalising of women's libraries, consider the 'transphobic scum' written across the entrance to the rape crisis centre, consider Magdelen Berns whe was forced out of her university lesbian Society for saying she didn't want to sleep with men, consider how people questioning the ideology get blocked, deleted and abused online, consider the no-platforming of Julie Bindel, Germaine Greer, and many others - all women.

People who fully support transgenderism are seeing it heading in a worrying direction and are asking questions. But you are not getting any answers! You're being told you are bigoted and transphobic for even asking.

I don't know about you, but that would really make me wonder why.

Why can't we talk about it? Why can't the two sides sit down together and let oxygen flow through the debate and have an exchange? Why has that never, ever happened?

This is about reinforcing gender roles and telling women, once again, to shut the fuck up and get back in the kitchen.

That is very interesting user1479. Worrying as all hell, but interesting.

"The overwhelming opinion is that it is none of our business what someone else wishes to do with their life, and we should respect that, to whatever extent that leads to"

Youngsters not recognising that extreme individuality will lead to conflict (until we all live on Asimov's Solaria) isn't that surprising, but the way mainstream culture is picking it up is getting scary. The amount of double speak - such as it's 'empowering' for women to be nothing but sex objects - around is enabling women to turn on each other. Women are losing out all over, and so many just can't see that it is women who are forced to give way for men's freedom.

I wonder if this Bill will finally see an end to death threats to TERF's:

www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2016-2017/0044/17044.pdf

services.parliament.uk/bills/2016-17/maliciouscommunicationssocialmedia.html

Does anyone have any other names I should read beyond Yardley's please

Here's another very well-thought out & balanced argument about the conflicts between transactivism and feminism. She's not a transwoman, but puts the feminist and lesbian woman's case very equitably, and with good research - no ranting:

But 'woman' is gender role, it's constructed by whatever society we are born in, female is biological sex.

I disagree with you here, though I know it's a fairly popular view. Woman means 'adult human female'. It is different from just 'female' which can mean any creature that has females and it differentiates from 'girl'.

Society's expectations of what a woman should do or be or wear or behave like, is gender roles. Feminine and masculine. These vary across time and place. Being a woman (or a man) is a biological fact.

User1479, one of my sons is 21. He, like you, believed that transwomen are women, so I asked him this:

My definition of the word "woman" is adult human female. I challenge you to come up with a definition that describes all the billions of women on the planet while also describing transwomen. Saying that "a woman is anyone who identifies as a woman" doesn't qualify because it still doesn't define the word "woman".

He went off overnight to mull it over. When he came back he said I was right. It's completely changed his perspective, as well as his DB and his GF. I now update him on MN debates occasionally.

I think the well-meaning and inexperienced young can be carried forward by what seems progressive and edgy. You're a lot more likely to believe Riley J Dennis' claim that biology is a social construct when neither you nor any of your friends are having babies.

But accepting that woman is no more than a feeling in a man's head makes no more sense than agreeing Rachel Dolezal can identify as black. And denying that sex matters is leading to the bullying of lesbians by heterosexual cross dressers who say that women who are not attracted to them are transphobic. I, and other feminists, would call that homophobic. Lesbians don't do dick. That's kinda the definition.

I've seen young posters on social media say you can't know what sex you are without medical testing, which is absurd. If you menstruate you're female. Of course here on MN the majority of posters have had babies, so claims that we can't know what sex we or our newborns are just make us roll our eyes.

I hope you find my "challenge" useful. It might make any friend who's already questioning the ideology think it through, user1479.

There's an excellent recent blog post How do they know who to kill?, which examines the huge tide of femicide across the world. I don't think anyone - any woman at least - could read that and go on believing that "woman" is an identity rather than just a physical reality.

It's interesting (and also concerning) to hear about the experiences of young people and that (to an even greater extent than elsewhere) it doesn't seem to be acceptable to have any debate on this subject.

I think there seems to be a view among some that anyone who questions this is a conservative old fuddy duddy who just doesn't understand and can't cope with the idea of people behaving in a non-gender-conforming way- But I have been in that position of being someone who pretty much unquestioningly supported trans rights and would have spoken up in its defence and, after being educated (partly by Mumsnet) I have changed my mind.

As a lesbian hanging out in the LGBT community for a lot of my adult life, I've known various transexual women over the years (ie they felt their body was physically wrong and had had or were in the process of having surgery/hormones). (And of course there were plenty of people who dragged up and people who didn't confirm with traditional masculine or feminine stereotypes - but that didn't make them not a man/woman back then.) Then more recently (maybe about a decade ago), I noticed the term got changed to 'transgender' but didn't really think much about it at the time.

I also noticed (more widely in society, among straight friends etc) that gender stereotypes seemed to be becoming more and more prominent. I remember once being with a group of straight friends in a pub who were all talking about what men think/want and what women want and I said 'well I don't feel that way' and my friend said 'well, that's because you've got a boy brain' - which I guess is a way of not having your view of what women think challenged. I didn't connect it with transgenderism (and I don't think that it was directly related as transgenderism wasn't anywhere near as prominent as it is now) - but I think it's indicative of the way society was already heading and part of the reason we are where we are now.

As transgenderism came to the fore and there was a blacklash in some quarters, I always defended any 'attack' on trans rights if the subject came up. Lots of comparisons were drawn with gay rights, conversative religious groups who opposed rights for gay people were against trans people too and I would defend anyone's right to dress/act in ways that some people would consider unconventional. - So without thinking into it too much, I supported trans rights. I always felt a bit confused/conflicted when transgender people described knowing they were a girl/woman because they wanted to play with dolls, liked feminine clothes etc because that didn't tally with my experience as a woman - and with my view that gender is imposed on us and that girls/women can prefer playing with trains to dolls, like playing sport etc etc

However, over time and thinking and reading more about this, I've come to realise how worrying this is for women (and also for some of the people, particularly young people ,who are identifying or being identified as trans). It's interesting to read that some transexual people also share these concerns as I think this (and a lot of debate on the subject) is being silenced. I think it's important to recognise that a lot of the people, particularly young people, who are going through this aren't trying to bring down feminism but are actually suffering from gender stereotypes (sometimes in addition to other issues in their life) and are trying to escape them.

I kind of think this thing will implode at some point but I'm worried about the consequences. Where there are debates on the subject, it is sometimes presented that the two options are the trans argument that conflates sex and gender versus the conservative arguement that men are men and women are women and should behave as such - so I'm concerned that there could be a conservative backlash rather than people realising that, you can behave in as "masculine" or "feminine" a way as you want and it doesn't make you any less of a man/woman. I also think that, because it has been so closely aligned with gay rights (and a lot of LGBT organisations lean very heavily on the 'T' part now) there could be a backlash against gay people.