I know this has been done to death... transactivism v feminism

[Lo24]

I know, I know...

It's just no matter what I read or who I talk to I still can't find an answer that makes sense to me.

I'm happy for anyone to be whoever they want. I don't believe the blue brain/pink brain crap (science doesn't support it) but I still support anyone who feels they need to transionition (fully or otherwise).

It seems so awful that (amoung other human rights violations) Trump is removing laws that protect trans kids. But the argument (the only one I see thrown over the Internet, bashing radical feminists) is the idea anyone who feels like a woman is one, whether or not they transion in any form.

I have 4 young girls. I don't want them left at risk because teachers can not challenge boys who follow them into the toilets because that would be transphobia. If they ever have to (god forbid) access female prisons, dv shelters, psychiatric hospital I want them to have protected female only space.

Yet mention this to transactivists and it's transphobic and makes me a radical feminist. I don't particularly care about the rad fem argument that trans renforces general roles, or that it's body dismorphia and should be treatment by mental health professionals, I don't care for Germaine Greer's stance on the 'issue'. So I don't have a radical stance on this. I just don't want female rights protection eroded. I'm sure any trans person who has transioned in some form won't pose a risk, but if anyone who terms themselves a woman must be allowed access to female only spaces then that protects predatory men from being challenged also. But I can't say that or I get accused of accusing trans people of being predators. Ahhh!!!!

Anyone know the answer? Is there any form or transgender activism that recognises that eroding female protections doesn't help trans women either? Or any literature by anyone trans that gives a better argument than the 'everyone who says they are a woman is one and if you don't agree you are a bigot' line of thought. Help!

[Lo24]

Does anyone have any other names I should read beyond Yardley's please (it's rare I have a night off and this is only due to injury so I am stuck in bed with kids cartoons until my very darling husband gets them to bed & I can finally watch riverdale so I might as well read something usefull in the meantime!)

[WhereYouLeftIt]

I find Magdalen Berns, speaking from the lesbian perspective, makes a lot of sense to me. Also Rebecca Reilly-Cooper for a more academic take.

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

4thwavenow.com
gendertrender.wordpress.com/category/trans-trend/
stoptranschauvinism.wordpress.com
...

[Lo24]

Thanks will look

[venusinscorpio]

Yes, trendy transgenderism risks confusing the issue mightily. Being born in the 'wrong' body isn't made up.

It's a fatuous, twee name for the mental health condition known as gender dysphoria.

[Lo24]

I guess with toilets it's possibley depends on which toilets are being discussed. I've used uni sex toilets in shopping centres or similar, and uni sex changing rooms with seperate cubicals in community pools, I don't mind the likes of h&ms mixed changing rooms. All are brightly lit and well staffed & feel safe.

But school toilets are a different issue. I only have young girls, but they are sensitive, anxious children and no way would they cope with unisex toilets at this age (not including nursery aged twins in nappies) let alone once they hit puberty (which was early for me so likely will be for them) and they shouldn't have to feel uncomfortable or intimidated attending to personal care in school.

Toilets in night clubs where females maybe more vulnerable, and males more aggressive would be another, especially student pubs where younger females will be at greater risk. Hospitals maybe another place it would be much more appropriate to keep seperate toilet facilities if not wards. Student boarding accommodation would be another.

I personally wouldn't be bothered by a trans woman in female toilets, but the anyone who identify as a woman isn't safe imo. I guess others may not be comfortable with transwomen also. I'm not sure what the answer is. I'm not sure how much is people being uncomfortable with trans, or how much is about respecting women's feelings first, or how much is the desperate need to protect prisions/psychiatric hospitals/shelters that are for females and 'giving way' on any female spaces isn't ok. I guess as well there will be so many woman using female toilets who also have been victims of men and maybe uncomfortable because of that. I don't think it's fair to say that's transphobia exactly, it just doesn't sit right. But disregarding their pov doesn't either.

I'm finding reading interesting ty to all suggestions. In particular some stuff on the 'trendiness' of trans movement in us coming from the homphobia there which is sad. I guess UK differs somewhat in that respect, less religious background here.

[Berthatydfil]

autogynephiliatruth.wordpress.com/

[Lo24]

I know what gynephilia is, I know the science behind it and the science (or handfuls of studies) behind the idea that male and female brains exist, and the flaws with those, and the thousands of studies that prove the tiny structural difference between male and female brains has no effect on functioning so in reality no pink/blue brain. I have a pysch degree, before community ed post grad.

I'm more interested in the opinions of transwomen (and men I guess) who stand up against the ta radicals. It seems absurd that I get accused of transphobia for suggesting female spaces need to be protected. I know it's not a radical pov for women, but I guess I havn't read much if any literature from transwomen that respects the need for protecting female spaces and proposes solutions (and doesn't call me a bigot for not jumping on the bandwagon)

That's what I'm interested in reading.

[MaidOfStars]

I am literally the only person in my friendship group who shares this opinion and we go to the pub and argue a lot I can see the look of repulsion on even my husband's face when I start on my 'bigoted feminazi rants'. He, the most feminist man I know (or so I thought) doesn't get it - there's no hope.

It's an impasse - there is no compromise. One group has to 'lose' - I think it shouldn't be females. I am female and while I, having led a blessedly charmed life as far as males/violence/etc are concerned, couldn't really care less who's having a pee next door to me, by god I will defend the rights of the female who does object to it.

Yes to lockable/fully self-contained private spaces - toilets, changing rooms, whatever. It's a no brainer. No to males in sports, in female prisons, in rape crisis centres (seriously? this is at least one point that I can get wider agreement with my peers on). No to gender identity as a protected characteristic. No to 'feeling like a woman'.

[Efferlunt]

Thanks for posting this - it seems a bit like what I'm trying to articulate but can't. I support people's right to live as the gender that works for them but I'm very uncomfortable with the ideas surrounding it. The implication that someone is born in a man's body but with a female brain. I don't have a female brain but a brain which is partly shaped by living in a biologically female body. Also the idea of trans children is very disturbing. Surely we should let them play with whatever they want and dress however they want without making assumptions about them.

And for some reason the phrase 'the gender assigned at birth' really really annoys me it's like there is someone with a clipboard and quota to meet.

[BBCNewsRave]

I don't think there is a set definition of women either, it's certainly not biological sex because there are other cultures where it's the females who hunt and gather and males who remain to nature infants, so have a different social construction of gender than western ideas.

Firstly - where? Sounds interesting.
Secondly - How can you say biological sex doesn't define women/men, then go on to say there are different roles in those cultures for women and men? You're contradicting yourself. How are they deciding who gets which role if not biology?

[MercyMyJewels]

Maid

I'm the same. I'm left wing liberal with similar leaning DH. We have fallen out several times about this shit. But recently, well, he is getting it. To be fair, it must be difficult for a partner to think that your long tern partner is suddenly a right wing fuck. But truth always prevails. I always knew time would tell, and it is.

[BBCNewsRave]

Efferlunt And for some reason the phrase 'the gender assigned at birth' really really annoys me it's like there is someone with a clipboard and quota to meet.

It's because it makes it sound random. Gender is not randomly assigned at birth. SEX is IDENTIFIED at birth. And the gender role is assigned based on that...

[MaidOfStars]

it must be difficult for a partner to think that your long tern partner is suddenly a right wing fuck
Exactly this He looks at me like I look at my Dad when he starts on about gay rights etc. I trust my husband's judgement so much that it does force me to examine my arguments and position, which is good.

I bought H an Idiot's Guide To Feminism for Christmas. He called me a twat. I told him he'd failed at the first hurdle.

I don't understand - if I had a history of fear/violence/rape/etc, he'd be so completely on my side (I know he would), but he won't see that I'm a lucky one, that violence and misogyny is common, that many females have very real reasons to not want to be around males in toilets or changing rooms.

I will continue to educate.

[pastizzi]

It blows my mind how successful transactivists have been in such a short space of time. It seems like since Caitlyn Jenner the whole landscape has changed very drastically, and now to be labelled 'transphobic' would terrify most people.

I wish I could get tips from transactivists on how to make myself a similarly successful disability activist. Because sadly, disabilism is nowhere near as heinous in most people's eyes. And I cannot for the life of me understand why.

[Lo24]

Thank you effer I really think this is the first time I have ever been called bigot. And the shock is uncomfortable. Like someone told me the sky is green with purple polkadots.

[Lo24]

Bbc as in its society's the construct those roles, often patriarchy, and assign to female gender, as opposed to the idea that world wide and through out history a role of woman has allways been set.

In South America somewhere if I remember correctly. I studied a couple of gender studies modules. We looked a little at anthropology and how often women were the hunter gathers in many cultures, & how it sometimes still exists. One tribe in particular is easy to find by Google I think because they are known for the men 'breast feeding' infants while mothers hunt- in other words they- ready to heave- dry nurse infants or use their nipples as dummies- and mum nurses on return or the one or two wet nurses who remain nurse babies on rote. If you Google breastfeeding men I'm pretty sure you would find it.....

[MaidOfStars]

It's successful because, and sorry if this is random flinging of ideas wine fuelled, it's trendy. Let's be inclusive, love everyone, concede to what anyone wants.

The general population hasn't thunk it through grammar joke on purpose

I'm in academia - students today don't understand free space, they actively campaign for censorship?!? It's bonkers.

[MaidOfStars]

There is no gender role, no 'unexpected' switch of hierarchy/position, that can avoid the fact that the gender role is opposed based on what one has between ones legs.

[Lo24]

Past yes!! This exactly it's like it's appeared over night. I particularly liked Yardley's writing on how Jenner and others have became the type of women that men think women should be- sexually alluring, submissive etc v v good reading.

[MaidOfStars]

Opposed? Imposed, I mean.

[venusinscorpio]

It is bonkers Maid. I find it amazing these supposedly intelligent and thoughtful young people can't see how deeply regressive and sinister it is.

[NiceMoustache]

Lo24

Past yes!! This exactly it's like it's appeared over night. I particularly liked Yardley's writing on how Jenner and others have became the type of women that men think women should be- sexually alluring, submissive etc v v good reading.

Yes. This.

[MaidOfStars]

There ain't no one who reinforces gender roles like a transgender woman.

chokes on irony