I know this has been done to death... transactivism v feminism

[Lo24]

I know, I know...

It's just no matter what I read or who I talk to I still can't find an answer that makes sense to me.

I'm happy for anyone to be whoever they want. I don't believe the blue brain/pink brain crap (science doesn't support it) but I still support anyone who feels they need to transionition (fully or otherwise).

It seems so awful that (amoung other human rights violations) Trump is removing laws that protect trans kids. But the argument (the only one I see thrown over the Internet, bashing radical feminists) is the idea anyone who feels like a woman is one, whether or not they transion in any form.

I have 4 young girls. I don't want them left at risk because teachers can not challenge boys who follow them into the toilets because that would be transphobia. If they ever have to (god forbid) access female prisons, dv shelters, psychiatric hospital I want them to have protected female only space.

Yet mention this to transactivists and it's transphobic and makes me a radical feminist. I don't particularly care about the rad fem argument that trans renforces general roles, or that it's body dismorphia and should be treatment by mental health professionals, I don't care for Germaine Greer's stance on the 'issue'. So I don't have a radical stance on this. I just don't want female rights protection eroded. I'm sure any trans person who has transioned in some form won't pose a risk, but if anyone who terms themselves a woman must be allowed access to female only spaces then that protects predatory men from being challenged also. But I can't say that or I get accused of accusing trans people of being predators. Ahhh!!!!

Anyone know the answer? Is there any form or transgender activism that recognises that eroding female protections doesn't help trans women either? Or any literature by anyone trans that gives a better argument than the 'everyone who says they are a woman is one and if you don't agree you are a bigot' line of thought. Help!

And re definit ions isn't chromosomes a bit misleading because arn't there several different combinations if you look at the mutations

Yes, there are, but that's precisely my point. There are many different combinations. Humankind is not so easily divisible into 'man' and 'woman' as 'XX' or 'XY' or 'can procreate this way' or 'can procreate that way'. To say 'well someone's a woman if they could create barring a medical problem' is no kind of answer. You're saying 'they would comply with my definition if their biology were different'. You still haven't provided a satisfactory biological definition.

Surely the answer is to get rid of gender stereotypes altogether and people present how the fuck they want whatever sex they are.

Croker how are babies made?

Yes, there are, but that's precisely my point. There are many different combinations. Humankind is not so easily divisible into 'man' and 'woman' as 'XX' or 'XY' or 'can procreate this way' or 'can procreate that way'. To say 'well someone's a woman if they could create barring a medical problem' is no kind of answer. You're saying 'they would comply with my definition if their biology were different'. You still haven't provided a satisfactory biological definition.

To quote many a previous MNetter on this. There are two sexes, male XY and female XX. Any other combination is intersex and is rare. Just because some people are born with one leg doesn't meant that humans are not bipedal.

Croker, you really are mistaken in assuming most people's objections to transactivism stem from just disliking it full stop. And Lo24, I think you believe you're unusual in looking for a sensible middle way. As you're finding, that middle way is bloody hard to find, in fact you'll probably end up giving up and realising that like it or not you are a nasty TERF and radfem, just for your perfectly rational concerns.

Lots of us started off where Croker is, and travelled via where you are now.

I started off as an unquestioning ally. I've got trans friends. But as I learned more and more about it became first unsettled and then worried and then angry. Not with my trans friends, but with the lines being pushed by activists.

Thanks where that puts alot of what I think into words better than I can.

Croker, do you think defining a woman as a feeling inside someone's head is a more satisfactory biological definition than the dictionary's? It's nonsense. Why on earth are people pretending that sex is fuzzy and intangible and somehow complicated to define? Except in the very rare cases of intersex, we can tell the difference between men and women easily. How would we define our sexuality as straight or gay or bi if we didn't know what a man or a woman was?

Jelly ofcourse that's the answer, but that doesn't happen overnight and what can we do in the meantime to protect females, especially vulnerable ones. Without trampling over trans rights.

Yep bev I'm sure when I filled in one of those trans assessment type things 'just to see' it said I should be male. I'm very comfortable being female but based on how I was as a teen..... and all four of my girls seem very much like me as a child so I would worry for them. Equally if one of my girls felt for sure they were trans & needed to transion even after lots of therapy I know I would want their rights protected also.

Doristic I don't think I'm unusual on this 'side' of things, I'm just woundering why there arn't lots of transgender people who see how rediculous and dangerous the more extreeme ta are. But Yardley's twitter is revealing, so many of her followers & who she follows seem 'victims' of trans 'trendiness' for want of better terms. And I know how hard it is to speak out as a victim.

Oh and to add I guess I was looking for the literature to counter those accessing me of bigotry just for wanting protection for females. Not that I thought I was unusual for wanting it while being totally ok with anyone who feels trans

CrokerCourtbullion Thu 23-Feb-17 15:04:53
"Predatory men will not magically obtain access to women's bathrooms by allowing transwomen in there. Men who want to assault women aren't going to be put off by a picture of lady on the door which tells them to keep out."
No, they won't magically obtain access - but it will become a whole lot more attractive to them. Rape is about power, not sex. Assault is about gratification through a demonstration of power, and proving to the prey in no uncertain terms that they have the power and you don't. That's how they get off, not on the assault itself. Predators are opportunists - they see a chance, the thrill is in taking that chance. Knowing that he can just claim to be trans - seeing the fear and frustration at not being able to tell him to piss off - well, he's demonstrated who has the power, hasn't he?

Jelly ofcourse that's the answer, but that doesn't happen overnight and what can we do in the meantime to protect females, especially vulnerable ones. Without trampling over trans rights.

We carry on segregating by sex for toilets, prisons etc. and fight for people's rights to present however they wish.

I'm done arguing with people who don't believe transsexualism (as it used to be called) is a real thing. I should know better by now than to get sucked in, but it makes me both sad and angry that such people still exist. People whose sense of their own sex is fundamentally at odds with the body they are in cannot be cured by being told it's okay for them to wear blue/play with dolls. The reason medical experts support sex changes (as they used to be called) is because it's the best way to treat the condition in which someone feels at odds with the biological sex they were born. These people have existed throughout history, and no amount of criminalisation, therapy, or ostracism 'fixes' them. Allowing them to transition, bodily, does. Yes, people exist who regret doing this. Yes, trendy transgenderism risks confusing the issue mightily. Being born in the 'wrong' body isn't made up.

WhereYouLeftIt That is very interesting reading. It is very hard to have sensible conversations on these issues on here because of the number of people who think the sex/gender distinction means that people who identify as a different SEX to the one they were born as can be mollified by being allowed the be feminine men or masculine women as their birth biology dictates. I can't argue with those people any longer, but your post made very interesting reading.

"I'm just woundering why there arn't lots of transgender people who see how rediculous and dangerous the more extreeme ta are."
I would expect that there are Lo24. But Transactivists are intimidating. They have a lot to lose in publicly disagreeing with the activists, I can't blame them for keeping their heads down.

I remember reading about something called 'Bystander Effect', where the presence of others discourages an individual from intervening in an emergency situation. Well, we're all (women and transwomen) standing around watching this car-crash of a situation, paralysed , hoping that someone is going to come along and take charge and stop it for us.

I belive that trans gender people exist and have done throughout history

Someone even said that up thread

And breakdown stereotypes by encouraging more women in science, politics and other areas where they are underrepresented. Encourage and normalise men taking paternity leave, working in caring professions etc.

Encourage your children to be who they want to be rather than what society thinks they should be because of their sex.

All the usual feminist/good parent stuff to reduce gender stereotypes.

Jelly ok sure but I mean how do we challenge the more extreeme ta's who are adamant that defending female spaces makes us prejuice bigoted right wingers. How to oppose the right wing anti trans movement without a lining with the extreeme ta pov the decimates female rights?

Croker I believe transgender people exist; I believe gender dysphoria exists and I believe that for those people transitioning can be very beneficial. That doesn't mean that I believe a woman is defined by a feeling. There are plenty of transgender people who don't claim that they are the sex they identify as. They present as that sex and live in a way that makes them feel at peace with themselves- great. That's different to saying that someone is a woman just because they say so.

Doristic I don't think I'm quite as end-of-the-spectrum as you perhaps think. Leaning that way, certainly, but I fully concede to the complexity of the issue the OP is raising. Unfortunately, transphobia is real and widespread, as any thread on this issue demonstrates within three posts. And that's part of the reason the OP is likely to shouted down for raising these points - because it opens the way for the real transphobics to start yelling 'no willies in the ladies loos!' and hang any female-presenting pre-ops because they should just accept they're men and dress in pink and be happy.

But there have been about three thoughtful and interesting points raised on this thread, so I'll do a proper flounce now, go have a read and a think.

Croker I think more people are supportive of anyone trans than not on this thread. I know I do. And that's despite the science (that I believe, psychology degree followed by community education into teaching, so scientist first) that shows there is no funcationall difference between male and female brains. I get some people just feel they are in the wrong sex body, I know plenty of trans people who I accept, but more acquaintances or friends of friends so not people I can bring this up with. But I think the idea that someone can look like a male and not transition in anyway yet be (legally) allowed to be a woman is damaging. Both for female born women and trans women. Male privilage and women's socialisation to submit and loose their voice are most obvious in teen years, so yes I look at my little, very vulnerable girls (3 out of 4 have asd) and worry that when they hit puberty and are lost and confused they will be much less likely to speak up against boys who know it's their right to wander in girls toilets, changing rooms, sex ed classes etc. And absolutely predatory teen boys I have worked with would have no problem yelling they are trans and watching teachers stuck. And like pp's have said that's the tip of the ice berg, rape victims being put in the same prisions as a rapist of women who now claims to be a woman, dv victims in a shelter beside their abuser, money for beds in female mh hospitals going to men, personal care no longer being able to specify female or male carer, no longer being able to choose male of female dr/nurse etc, even after assault. Taking female stem scholarships, female places in sports, these are world changing problems that will put us back in the dark ages, including genuine trans women. There needs to be a way of countering tas who yell bigot just for worrying about female rights.

Croker I don't think most of us have any problem with transwomen - what we feel under attack from is the transactivists. For me, the comparison between transwomen and transactivists is similar to the comparison between divorced fathers and Fathers For Justice. F4J are a bunch of attention-seeking extremists who hate the women who bore their children and are of questionable morality when their behaviour is looked at closely. Similarly, transactivists are a bunch of attention-seeking extremists who hate all women and are of questionable morality when their behaviour is looked at closely.

Also I fear you may still be in the trap that I once was. You said "transsexualism (as it used to be called)". I used to think transgender was the same as transexual, but just more 'polite'. But they are very different things.

Are you sure it's transphobia, what you see? What I mean is why conclude that people on MN are driven by prejudice, rather than being mistaken (in your view) in the way they've put the various bits of information together in order to come to an opinion?

I used to be very quick to assume prejudice rather than faulty logic was behind some people's views (on various subjects), but I've come to see that that's often a mistake. It's also a very unhelpful assumption when it comes to actually changing anyone's mind.