To think the abortion rate will increase after April this year?

[RocketQueenP]

When the new rules on tax credits / universal credit come in ie when no one can claim benefit be it top up or otherwise for any more than 2 children

Sadly I am helping a good friend cope who has just had an early abortion, she did not plan the pregnancy and one of the main reasons is she and her DH are low earners/ They already have 2 at school, and won't be able to afford to have this baby. She is devastated and has admitted they could have squeezed another DC in if it wasn't for the new rules. I think this will happen a lot. :(

In times gone by people would adopt out children that were unplanned that they couldn't afford and I really feel that this is what we are headed back to. Not adoption but, you get my drift

I also think the government fully know this and its one of the reasons they have brought it in. Simple population control

Splendid I would happily give money to support those in poverty. But why anyone would want more than two children in those circumstances is beyond me.

Well I'm sort of inclined to agree with this in that I'm not planning on having anymore than one and I earn pretty well. But I don't expect everyone to have the same priorities as me and if everyone waited (as I did) until they were earning six figures and in their late 30s we'd be screwed as a society.

I make no excuses Somerville. My husband was made redundant and I have suffered illness. However when making life choices ie the house, car etc we can afford we factor in the 'what will happen of one of use loses our job scenario'. So I have no sympathy I am afraid. We all know life can change.

BillSykesDog - where have I made any comment on what I think of migration? You take away whatever prejudice you fancy - clearly.

It doesn't take a genius to know how to avoid an unwanted (or unwise, as it is most of the time) pregnancy. You don't need to sit down and think long and hard about it. You simply don't make a daft, selfish decision that will negatively impact that child and any other children you have.

Sorry, but it's not my responsibility to think of other peoples' children for them. If they suffer, they have their parents to thank for that. I have my own children to concern myself with, and ensuring that their future isn't dark because we've run our country into the ground.

Also, I come from a family that isn't dissimilar to many examples given on this thread. Parents were low earners (but chose to live in a cheaper area to ensure they lived within their modest means), and my DF died at the age of 36 when I was 9mo, leaving my DM a widow in a different country from her family. And yet here I am, with the perspective that I have.

Benefits are there to support those who have short-term, unexpected hardship. It's not there to pick up the slack that you foresaw but chose to ignore.

Lonnika123 - but surely you know it's unrealistic to predict every eventuality? I work in the third sector with a lot of families who's lives have fallen apart. In my experience, many of them had planned for a change in circumstances. What they didn't plan for was four or five changes. One parent out of work short term? Fine. One parent permanently disabled, one child with SEN, one parent suddenly having to act as carer because there isn't enough social care support, and you have to be a very high earner to make working & paying for care viable, and they cope for a while but then the car breaks down, there's a hole in the roof, they need to sell the house and five years down the line they really need help.

No one can plan for every eventuality, and you're kidding yourself if you think you have. I would say DP and I have been careful - we have a lifestyle we can afford on one income, life insurance and critical illness cover and six months income in savings. I don't pretend this does anything more than reduce the chances of our needing help. It doesn't eliminate it.

The thorny problem though is that people do not behave as they should (or as you think they should). They will have babies regardless.

So the real world question is do we support these children? I would argue (even putting aside general ethics and not wanting children going hungry) that we should. It is much more likely that the child in question will do well as an adult if they are not raised in poverty.

All this endless discussion about how can we possibly avoid unplanned pregnancies and yet they never suggest the most blindingly obvious : don't have sex.

Maybe I'm an anomaly but I can live very happily with no sex or very infrequent sex. In the early days of relationships, obviously I'm at at day and night like most new couples, but by the third child hasn't this massively tailed off?

I accept I'm probably a weirdo. I need food, shelter and love but I just don't need sex. Please don't say 'what so only rich people are allowed to have sex are they', I'm equally baffled by well off people needing loads of sex with two kids already.

It's a cultural and social issue not really based on finances imo. In Italy most people only have one child and people don't generally have children very young or unmarried. Huge generalisation I know. But I've observed this to be the case and I think it's cultural rather than 'ok I'll have another baby because tax credits will pay for it.'

And I agree that some of the people on this thread are 'othering' people who get CTC. At one time nearly everyone was entitled to CTC (another thread)

MorrisZapp - that's a very personal preference though. I have been with DP for 15 years. I'd be devastated if he didn't want sex any more.

People don't need to have sex? I've heard it all now.

I also think that what you can afford is subjective. I have a friend who feels she's got 'no money' if she can't go on holiday 3 times a year.

But your children will suffer beagle if we don't adequately support families. The countries finances will be screwed. Children being taken into care or suffering mental health issues will cost society enormously. It isn't a case of 'now we aren't giving money to the parents the overall state bill will be a lot less'. Most families will cope reasonably well and will do their best but some families won't and the children of those families will end up costing us a lot. For example: a family with a disabled child where one family is a stay home carer might decided to go back to being a 2 parent working family and their child will have to go into care. Do you have any idea how much a single full Time Residential care place costs for a severely disabled child with learning disability and additional medical needs?
I know that as a carer I currently get £62 per week carers allowance and we get a small Amount of tax Credits due to the disabled child elements. I hate claiming any benefits. I didn't need to claim
Anything before our child's needs became to great for any childcare to be suitable. If I wanted to return to work and not claim any benefits our sons would have to go into residential care and his placement would cost in excess of £200k per annum.
Somebody People might say that disabled children should be supported differently but the fact is that a lot of families with disabled children rely on tax credits and are still In poverty due to the prohibitive costs of disability which benefits don't always cover.

The way a lot of you talk about abortion as if it's a quick fix , an easy route , an easy decision, the right thing to do is rather disgusting. Abortion is actually not an easy straightforward process, it can come with lifelong problems left for women to deal with linked to mental health problems.
Also I personally won't have the government or anybody else for that matter dictate to me how many children I can have or afford.

I stand corrected - the actual cost of my sons care if he has to go into full time residential care would be £332,000 per annum. But hey, at least I could stop degrading myself by claiming tax credits and carers allowance.

There are several issues which have compounded the problem. You can't have a good quality welfare state and unlimited immigration. It's just not economically feasible so you have to choose one or the other. Tax credits should be slowly phased out and the tax threshold should be raised to ensure no low paid employees pay any tax rather than them paying tax and then being handed back money via tax credits. The UK doesn't need more people, it already has enough and there are millions who are either unemployed or in part-time low paid work. The pensions crisis is a ponzi scheme and bringing in more people is not the solution because you have to bring in people to pay the pensions of those that you have brought in ad infinitum.

However, all these issues avoid the real elephant in the room being that housing costs are too high and too many people have a vested interest in making money via housing at the expense of those who do not have housing wealth. Most of the unaffordability in the UK and the reason why so many people need benefit top ups is because both mortgages and rents are too high. Nobody should be paying half a million for a semi in a suburb when 20 years ago the same house would be 1/10th the price.

The real solution is to end tax avoidance by the very rich and multinationals so that the 1% don't keep getting richer at the expense of everyone else (which is what has happened over the past 20 years). This is very hard to do when we have successive governments that govern for the rich by the rich.

BillSykesDog

But yes, what I will take away from that is that you are a left winger who supports low paid jobs because unfettered migration is more important to you than poor people in this country having any quality of life

It was the Right that supported and signed the Maastricht Treaty, the Left opposed it. The right gleefully labelled them as racist and since then it has been the kiss of death to any politician to oppose immigration.

It was the right that changed benefits regulation that stopped people in the UK doing farm picking and packing jobs, and other short term low paid work.

But dont let facts stop you getting a rant in.

Abortion is actually not an easy straightforward process,

Of course it is. What are you talking about? The risks associated with abortion are far less than those associated with childbirth. Why do people peddle this nonsense?

Saw this earlier and thought of this thread.

blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/the-welfare-myth/

"The UK doesn't need more people, it already has enough"

I don't agree.

Immigrants are a fantastic pool of talent. There's a reason why so many businesses in my area (particularly in catering and supermarkets) are mainly staffed by Eastern Europeans and Asian immigrants, rather than white English people, and that's because they offer employers better value for money. The long term unemployed in the UK are often beset by problems which make them unattractive to employers. They are often poorly educated, have poor physical or mental health, or family lives so complicated (and unsupported) that they simply can't hold down a job.

It would be awful for employers and for the economy if that talent pool was to dry up because of severe restrictions on immigration.

If the 'abortion is life long trauma' trope was true, my friends, sisters and I would all be traumatised and struggling to cope.

But actually, we're all absolutely fine. Abortion is usually a quick and trauma free process. I've had root canal which upset me much more than my termination did.

The terraced house my mother grew up in costs £50k by the way so don't assume all the parts of the UK have £500k houses!

My termination upset me enormously, despite the pregnancy being the result of rape. I would much rather have root canal surgery every day for a month than have another termination. The complications I had afterwards leading to pelvic inflammatory disease didn't help matters either. Of course I am glad that I was able to get rid of my rapsists child and not be constantly reminded of him every day of my life but it was still incredibly difficult. Maybe I am just weak.

It would be awful for employers and for the economy if that talent pool was to dry up because of severe restrictions on immigration.

I agree in the short and medium term; disagree in the long term, because of job automation.

MorrisZapp - again, that's so personal. I absolutely support a woman's right to choose, but my abortion (I was very young, in an exploitative and abusive relationship and had an abortion while trying to escape it) was hugely traumatic for me and it affected my mental health for the best part of a decade.