To think the abortion rate will increase after April this year?

[RocketQueenP]

When the new rules on tax credits / universal credit come in ie when no one can claim benefit be it top up or otherwise for any more than 2 children

Sadly I am helping a good friend cope who has just had an early abortion, she did not plan the pregnancy and one of the main reasons is she and her DH are low earners/ They already have 2 at school, and won't be able to afford to have this baby. She is devastated and has admitted they could have squeezed another DC in if it wasn't for the new rules. I think this will happen a lot. :(

In times gone by people would adopt out children that were unplanned that they couldn't afford and I really feel that this is what we are headed back to. Not adoption but, you get my drift

I also think the government fully know this and its one of the reasons they have brought it in. Simple population control

Single parenthood is explicitly discouraged and single parents are in total opposite to UK NOT given an priority for public housing. So only embark on single parenthood if they are independently wealthy

Wow. So I guess victims for DV who have children are pretty much fucked then. Stay with their abuser or be condemned to poverty. That, my friend, is an example of the worst kind of country - one that doesn't protect the vulnerable.

Far more likely, statistically speaking. What a load of bollocks

Why are single parents assumed to be condemned to poverty if they're not totally supported by the state?

Did you miss the part where they only do it if independently wealthy? Have you missed the countless personal stories told in this thread about how important benefits were in helping DV victims get their life started again?

tax percentages

Somerville, I was a little on the fence with this - or rather, interested to hear both sides before making a call. Your well thought out and elegantly expressed post won me over. There were difficult times in the past when we were grateful fot this safety net in the short term and I would wish it for others too. The DM and its ilk are keen to demonise and it's an emotive topic where it's also easy to see the other side of the argument.

The Singaporean situation is worse than that there are no benefits.

There are large tax breaks for those who have children, and they increase in size for every child. But obviously you can only claim a large tax break if you pay more than that in tax! Oh, and you have to be married, widowed or divorced to get it. Single parents by choice cannot get it.

It is social engineering, pure and simple. Well educated, wealthy, married people get tax breaks (off already low taxes!) amounting to sometimes most of their income. While those with a poor education working in lower paid jobs don't get the same tax breaks and are therefore disincentivesed to have children - or at least more than one.

So in Singapore people do support other people's children - the children of the married, wealthy 'elite'.

But a very generous safety net is still there.

Suki Thank you, that means a lot.

There are massive changes to widowed parents allowances happening at the same time as this tax credits change. In a few years there will be a lot of parents who as a result of one or the other (or both - people widowed who have 3 or more DC will be doubly screwed) will be in massively precarious positions as a result.

Wonder if they're hoping that this cut will help pay for these cuts? www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/official-report-reveals-hated-benefit-9361944

Pretty ridiculous that the government is paying to take money away from needy people!

I would choose the downside we have now (with a minority of 'spongers', over the one we're about to have - where when the worst happens people are not given benefits that reflect the real size of their families

I agree with this in principle, but shouldn't it be possible to have a system which works both ways, allowing the benefit to be paid for extra children under exceptional circumstances but still excluding those who may actively choose to have more because of the support available?

Granted it might be complicated - it's complicated anyway - and no doubt some with no real claim would do their best to jump on the bandwagon, but surely something could be worked out if the will was there?

I have 3DC and we fully self support. However if our circumstances change I would only receive benefits for 2DC.
That us wrong imo.

puzzled you mean 'workfare'

A married woman who is fleeing DV is not classed as a single parent but rather a divorced parent and as such is eligible for some (minimal) public help in terms of access to public housing. Single parent in singapore mean people who have children out of wedlock

Catlady,its only babies born after april that will be affected,i have 3 that we get cb & ctc i will have to stay on ctc as the new UC only applies to 2 kids.

Ignore my comment Re workfare. Misunderstood.

Dawn My point is that DH and I, if we lived in the UK would pay about GBP200k a year in taxes. We would get zero benefits paid to us (which I agree with). Someone from the bottom 10% of wage earners paying 43% in tax would be qualifying for benefits (housing, income support etc etc) so if you take the net amount that they 'pay' it will most probably be a negative number as they should be getting more back than what they put in. It should also be far far lower than the 35% paid by those in the top 10%.

You really can't just look at taxes paid. Of course it is going to look bad. You have to look at the net outcome which is the income distribution.

If you have never claimed before you will only be able to claim for your 1St two kids. Obviously hope I will never have to but it's a shame that different rules apply to new and existing claimants.

A married woman who is fleeing DV is not classed as a single parent but rather a divorced parent and as such is eligible for some (minimal) public help in terms of access to public housing

That's a relief, not as bad as I thought. Although women are still fucked if someone gets them pregnant and decides to leave at the last moment.

Am I understanding this right - that if you already have 3 children, and are already claiming tax credits for those 3 children, nothing is to be taken away from you?

It's only where people do not already have 3 children, and are hoping to have a third, that they will not get the tax credits for the third as the previous generation of parents did?

And that if you currently have 3 children, and are not claiming any tax credits, but find yourself needing to in the future, you will only be able to claim for the first two children?

Nobody's bank balance is actually being depleted - we are simply losing the possibility of the riches and the state support that the previous generation of parents of 3+ children were able to claim.

Just as people have lost other things that previous generations enjoyed - council housing, a minimum wage designed so that just one adult's wage could support a family, free university education, bursaries for nursing degrees, squatters' rights, ample beds in hospitals, final salary pensions etc etc.

A tax hike is a temporary solution to an ongoing problem. It doesn't address the root cause of the problem, and it's not going to work in the long term.

The welfare state is going to run the country into the ground in the long-term (not just the UK, but other countries with similar systems too). From an economic standpoint, it's been an abject, miserable failure.

I really want a tax hike - on the whole we are a moderately wealthy country and way too consumerist - many people have enough spare income to pay a bit more - fuck me holidays , waitrose , perfumes etc ! Not essential

And I do want to have enough money so we can provide housing to women fleeing domestic violence , to disabled people , to kids with needs , for MH problems

And I stand by my earlier comments about Ops poor friend and I hope she never reads this thread

You can support small families , in the premise that there are more deserving causes than people having kids they can't afford without benefits

Well I don't.

We are the squeezed middle. No fuck me holidays here or fripperies. My kids have been on a plane once.Lidl all the way.

Who are these people with all this spare cash? Last I heard the only people with anything spare were pensioners.

This country is over populated and still climbing at a ridiculous rate, our largest cities and most definitely London, are bursting at the seams. Schools, hospitals just cant cater for the sheer number of people any more and you only have to look at tubes with people rammed against each other like cattle and ridiculous traffic congestion well, everywhere to see there are just too...many... people. If you can have a 3rd kid do so, but only if you can afford to raise them.

stop I want a tax hike too.

We probably count as the squeezed middle (we don't spend on luxuries) but we do have spare cash.

I would much rather money was spent on access childcare than simply giving people extra cash.