To think the abortion rate will increase after April this year?

[RocketQueenP]

When the new rules on tax credits / universal credit come in ie when no one can claim benefit be it top up or otherwise for any more than 2 children

Sadly I am helping a good friend cope who has just had an early abortion, she did not plan the pregnancy and one of the main reasons is she and her DH are low earners/ They already have 2 at school, and won't be able to afford to have this baby. She is devastated and has admitted they could have squeezed another DC in if it wasn't for the new rules. I think this will happen a lot. :(

In times gone by people would adopt out children that were unplanned that they couldn't afford and I really feel that this is what we are headed back to. Not adoption but, you get my drift

I also think the government fully know this and its one of the reasons they have brought it in. Simple population control

As a higher tax rate paying family with one child I support this change. We put lots in but take none out, not TCs, child benefit, nothing. Everyday I squeeeze on to the train to work and pay more tax. I'm sorry but I just don't want to keep paying out for people with poor decision making skills.

If you cannot afford a third child without benefits then you cannot afford the child.

The problem with the benefits system is that many now see it as an entitlement, a lifestyle choice. I really think it should simply be a safety net.

I'm happy for my taxes to be spent on the NHS and schools as these things really make a difference to peoples lives. However, I do not support people being given money to work the odd hour here or there or claim to be a self employed mobile hairdresser working min hours so they can claim maximum credits and have multiple children. To be honest, I also don't think the argument that those children will pay my pension when I'm old stands. Children from benefit dependent families often end up in the same situation. They will not become surgeons or captains of industry.

With an ever increasing welfare bill and the clusterfuck that is Brexit appearing to cost billions of tax payers money I'm sick of paying out more and more and seeing services decline whilst people claim entitlement to what is effectively my money. I'm literally breaking my back at work everyday to support all this shit. I imagine we'll see net contributors starting to leave on mass.

I had lunch with a social worker friend today and mentioned a PP's remark about children being disadvantaged if "chaotic" families have benefits cut in any way

Her own view was that in such cases, restricting benefits for more than two can potentially be a good thing if it prevents yet more children being born into appalling circumstances

I'm not sure if it's a view I can agree with or not, but it certainly provided food for thought ...

Newbiecat i cant help noticing that all your choices are ones the woman is responsible for.

I had a LARC a couple of times. Norplant and Depo Provera. Never again. They dont agree with everyone. The last time the family planning clinic discouraged me from having a LARC.

Im childfree by choice and bloody hate hormonal contraception. But DH and i no longer have a physical relationship so its not a worry.

Round I can't grasp whatever point you're trying to make, but I strongly suspect that automation figures heavily into this conversation if anyone wants to argue that this policy is bad because we're not going to have enough workers in the medium and long term.

Sorry. Run-on sentence.

Newbiecat i cant help noticing that all your choices are ones the woman is responsible for

Bar sterilisation (permanent) and condoms (unreliable, unfun) what methods are available to men?

With an ever increasing welfare bill and the clusterfuck that is Brexit appearing to cost billions of tax payers money I'm sick of paying out more and more and seeing services decline whilst people claim entitlement to what is effectively my money. I'm literally breaking my back at work everyday to support all this shit. I imagine we'll see net contributors starting to leave on mass.

1. your back is not literally breaking, otherwise you'd be unable to work.
2. Services are declining because the government is diverting monies elsewhere, not to benefit claimants but as tax breaks to their pals.
3. I don't imagine anybody will leave en masse, however, due to the complete and utter brexit fuck up farce, a number of extraordinarily useful people; scientists et al, may be forced to leave. Oh, by the way, I'm currently a benefits family, my (disabled) children are at university. If you look up the Joseph Rowntree Foundation studies you'll see the disproving of most to the hypotheses you posted above. Children from benefits families frequently go on to work. There are very few families with four or more children, however, it's what the government hears most so that's where they targeted their cuts. They pitted us against one another and are quietly getting on with what they want to do whilst we continue to argue about things that just aren't true.

Oh, and you forgot to mention that you supported benefits for people with disabilities because whilst you're 'literally breaking your back', they've already broken theirs.

Unfun is not an excuse for a man not to use a condom. What about women who cant use hormonal contraception. A friend of mine has epilepsy and has been told not to use it.

And why the emphasis on PIV sex Curry?

Unfun applies to the woman as well. I hate condoms.

Unfun is not an excuse for a man not to use a condom. What about women who cant use hormonal contraception. A friend of mine has epilepsy and has been told not to use it.

She probably shouldn't use it.

newt My point is that the elder two DC in his household aren't his kids. Why is he responsible for someone else's kids before his own? My friend makes it work but no thanks to him.

I would really like to see some changes in the way maintenance is calculated plus how delinquencies are managed. It's not about putting people in jail at the start. Here in the US my county has deadbeat parents cleaning the parks, roads and other community projects. It's also easy to have an ex's wages garnished if they are late paying.

Okay the comment 'literally breaking my back' was silly and of course I have no issue paying tax towards people with disabilities. I'm more than happy to pay tax for most things as it goes but not to support more than two children (and to be honest I'd be happy to reduce it to one child).

However, it's becoming increasingly frustrating to see the value of my money diminishing as items become more expensive and due to Brexit my work situation is more precarious. I feel that DH and I work our arses off yet every time I see the news there's reports of how much money we'll have to spend to get out of EU, the pound is worth shit abroad, how much Trident costs, welfare bill rising, deficit rising, people having multiple kids they can't clothe and feed without tax payer support and services diminishing. It can't continue, there's a point where net contributors will say enough is enough and walk taking the magic money tree (where all these benefits come from) with us. We're sick of being shaken down for cash.

Want2bSupermum I know and I agree it's ridiculous. I was merely pointing out that the adoption part of it is largely irrelevant. He would be financially responsible even if he 'just' lived there.

I agree the situation is wrong. When my ex did work he reduced my maintenance the second he moved in with his partner and her children. Like your friend I make it work because I have to. :)

As a higher tax rate paying family with one child I support this change. We put lots in but take none out, not TCs, child benefit, nothing

I agree and, do you really really get nothing back?

I get back schools, and the NHS- which covers not just me but my elderly parents and my dads cancer - so I aint too bitter

erm and lovely lovely roads!

I'm a higher rate tax payer with one child and I do not support this change, so where does that leave us?

Maybe that earning more money doesn't give you or me an extra vote - do you think it should?

Those who think they get nothing back from their taxpaying obviously have no concept of the shithole of a country they would live in if nobody paid any tax!

When I travel to countries where people pay higher tax rates than ours they're amazing. Cleaner. Efficient public transport and road network. Much smaller gap between richest and poorest in society. More facilities for those with disabilities, so more of them can work. Better childcare options. Well funded healthcare. Great state schools. And their levels of health and happiness are high too.

And when I visit countries with lower tax rates than ours they are noticeably worse. Everything, from potholes to education to health.

I know which I prefer.

I used to be proud of being a British citizen. Of our long tradition of welcoming immigrants (and I speak here as a historian - centuries of it) and of spearheading a national health service and welfare state. Lately I just despair.

I actually said I was happy to pay tax for most things but not unlimited children. I'm also aware that my taxes pay for the basics like roads ffs! everyone benefits from these and I'm grateful to live in a country where the basics are met but I'm not happy to cover 3+ kids. You can keep replying with whataboutarry but some of you are just being obtuse and know exactly what I mean.

Some of us agree with the change and will say so but if you want an echo chamber of agreement I'll bow out.

We're sick of being shaken down for cash. You do know that increases in the benefits bill goes on pensioners, don't you?

Oh, and if you're sick of being shaken down for cash, then there's nothing you can do because the only way this is going to get better is for tax increases and fair distribution.

Where are all the net contributors going?

Do i have to hide dh's passport?

I dont think you shoukd bow out capricorn

@somerville that is not necessarily true. I come from a country with extremely low personal income taxation rates. Our infrastructure is world class, education one of the highest in the world and I think possibly the highest or second highest in math and science education at secondary school level. Public housing is plentiful and we'll designed and health care is superb. So it's not a given that good infrastructure and education is only possible with high levels of taxation.
However I will tell you the only thing my country does NOT have, a welfare state. State welfare is so minimal as to be non existent and you would only qualify if you were utterly destitute or indigent and even then an investigation would be carried to ensure that there is no relative who could be responsible for your care. All citizens are expected to pay into a state held personal pension for their old age and health care and the level of health care you get is tied into your contributions.
Single parenthood is explicitly discouraged and single parents are in total opposite to UK NOT given an priority for public housing. So only embark on single parenthood if they are independently wealthy. Personal responsibility as a virtue is imbued onto every citizen fr9m young, we know we can expect nothing from the state. The benefit of course is no one be grudges anyone else enjoying life in the back of others' work. Your income is your own.
I am not saying that system is necessarily better but there doesn't always need to be a tradeoff between infrastructure and public services and personal income taxation. Tradeoff between welfare security and taxation maybe.

Capricorn and I am many others are in the majority in the UK at present which is one reason why we have the current government. It's a perfectly reasonable view.

I agree however that most benefits claimants do not have massive families.
58,000 people were up against the previous lower benefits cap - a separate issue but also very popular with voters.