To think the abortion rate will increase after April this year?

[RocketQueenP]

When the new rules on tax credits / universal credit come in ie when no one can claim benefit be it top up or otherwise for any more than 2 children

Sadly I am helping a good friend cope who has just had an early abortion, she did not plan the pregnancy and one of the main reasons is she and her DH are low earners/ They already have 2 at school, and won't be able to afford to have this baby. She is devastated and has admitted they could have squeezed another DC in if it wasn't for the new rules. I think this will happen a lot. :(

In times gone by people would adopt out children that were unplanned that they couldn't afford and I really feel that this is what we are headed back to. Not adoption but, you get my drift

I also think the government fully know this and its one of the reasons they have brought it in. Simple population control

Rhayader , yes 2.8 million families claiming tax credits are non working families.
14.1 million families are working families.
I would say that is a significant proportion.

I think if someone is desperate not to abort they won't do it, regardless of the finances.There is always a way to increase your family income - a second, third job. Most people in the U.K. wouldn't consider working a 70 hour week, but if they were very committed to not aborting they might accept that this was a price worth paying. - I agree with this. My mum had a breakdown following the split from my extremely violent father. She still worked 60hrs a week in multiple jobs to keep a roof over our heads and food in our bellies and I'm so proud of her for it. Her only gripe was that even though she'd suffered a breakdown she worked damn hard and her taxes were going to some people who were just bone idle - as much as some people like to think such people don't exist!

Bragadocia, that sounds like good news but we're still borrowing massive, massive amounts. Unfortunately it's not a clear amount in the black overall.

Catching up with thread now and what to say thank you to space83 for a great post.

Why have 3 children despite both parents being in full time work and still struggling? Child benefit for the third child is/was so miniscule it's not going to even begin to cover the costs of a child.

I'm writing my dissertation about single parents and welfare at the moment, so this thread is interesting. It seems the majority of people believe the shite that the tories and the Murdoch owned papers trot out.

The UK is not in the shit because of the reckless spending of Labour. The country is in the shit because of a global financial crisis caused by bankers. Yet the most vulnerable members of society, who have been systemically scapegoated in the media, are footing the bill, whilst the (now largely state owned) banks continue to hand out huge bonuses. Austerity is a choice, not a necessity. It's all part of the Tory ideology, and has always been, to shrink the welfare state.

People would be able to afford to have three children if businesses paid an actual living wage, and the housing market wasn't in such a mess. I think it's sad that having more than 2 kids has now become a preserve of the rich. And yes, a huge backwards step in terms of feminism and women's independence, as now women with more than two children won't feel able to survive financially on their own, which means many will stay in abusive relationships in order to survive.

I am another who wholeheartedly agrees with the new rules.

We are quite well off, but decided to stop at 2 as we didn't feel we could afford a 3rd.

Increasing NMW won't solve much. Prices just go up, skilled work salaries would need to go up and some jobs don't need any talent so don't command a high wage.

The majority claiming tax credits are likely to be part time, have a SAHP or not be working at all so NMW won't help.

Rhayader The government would very likely pay out more in wtc childcare than they would receive in income tax.

Based on what? If people are working more they are paying more income tax AND receiving less WTC.....

*yes 2.8 million families claiming tax credits are non working families.
14.1 million families are working families. *

My point was about the amount of spending though, not the number of people. Working people receive less benefit. A 1 working parent family on 30K with 2 kids would receive £1,225 in benefit. An unemployed family with 2 kids would get £6,110.

SquidgeyMidgey there needs to be a cut off somewhere...why should I pay for others to have what I wanted?

Because I'm assuming that you're not bitter. I'm assuming you can let go and be glad that others are able to. Because saying 'so be it' to the concept of being akin to Herod is quite sad overall. And a damning indictment of someone's mentality.

With rights come responsibilities - - sure, tell that to the MPs who don't turn up to most votes and still get paid £74k basic wage..

Look, the bigger picture is one day we're all alone. And on that day wouldn't it be nice if you could say 'can someone hold my hand?' and someone would. They wouldn't go: you're life choices are so contrary to mine that I won't. That I would rather watch you starve or fall than take a moment and hold you.

Why is that such a bad picture to paint? Why is Corbyn such a bad person to suggest that Labour needs to go grassroots?

We are better together. We are stronger as a nation, as a group, if we stand shoulder to shoulder and hold each other up. No one would fall.

If we let others down, we let ourselves down. We let humanity down. We let down our children, our parents, our families, our colleagues. We let down society and we let in fascism. We let in that bitter part of ourselves that is ugly and that it takes a strong person to say 'I'll hold your hand' instead of making it easier to grow and let our potential develop.

I don't mean to sound so angry in this thread but it is so so so sad that so so many people are broken from the inside that they can't see beyond their own armchair perspective.

Makes me wish Trump would just press the red button - at least his ignorance is understandable.

Increasing NMW would push up the salaries of the lowest paid, hopefully therefore putting a squeeze on the salaries (or dividends) the rich people at the top are paying themselves. Something has to be done to decrease the gap between the highest and lowest paid, which has been widening and widening over the decades. Increasing NMW seems an obvious way to do that.

"I think it's sad that having more than 2 kids has now become a preserve of the rich"

Why?

Large families are a luxury not a necessity.

I absolutely agree that austerity is an ideological choice not a necessity, but if we're going to spend large amounts of money I would prefer it to go on the things which improve the quality of children's lives - affordable housing, an excellent education system, and a well-resourced NHS.

Oh what drivel "broken from the inside".

Regardless of why we're broke I don't want to be funding more than 2 children regardless. I want couples to actually think and take some responsibility.Having the children you can afford is hardly a hardship,millions of couples who aren't on benefits are forced to do it.

Childcare is paid up to a total of £910 that's a lot of tax!

That was to Rhayader.

£910a month.

...why should I pay for others to have what I wanted?
Because I'm assuming that you're not bitter. I'm assuming you can let go and be glad others are able to
What on earth are you on about, space?? That post is quite astounding

What happens if many people do still choose to/accidentally have more than 2 children? Presumably, the children will be the ones to suffer in the long run? Why is it that average size of family doesn't actually seem to relate to generosity of a country's benefit system? The US has massively high child poverty rates compared to other OECD countries and high fertility rates, and phenomenally stingy benefits. Is that what we want for this country?

Wildbelle, good. It needs to shrink. It's gone from being a safety net in times of trouble to one where people base their decision to work or not, have children etc around it.

The effects will go on for years even after the cap as children see their parents not working or just doing the odd hour here and there. It will become the norm to them regardless of what schools do to encourage a career.

Why should those that don't self support get to make choices those paying for don't get to make. Society should treat everyone equally, not reward those that won't support themselves or their children.

GreenGinger2 have you even read that this is an IN WORK benefit. IN WORK. Can we just pin that to every post? this is about in work benefit cuts so people get it.

As for 'what drivel'. Who even uses the word 'drivel' outside of a tennis court these days. Just say what you mean: which is 'eff off'.

You sound like a horrible person from your post. Of course that is experiential on your part. You probably didn't start off that way. It just happened.

Yes 'broken from the inside'. Because people who genuinely can't get their head around helping people - altruism - really do need psychological help.

If you can't afford a third child even though you are IN WORK, @space, then you can't afford it, full stop. There is still no argument for the tax payer to subsidise you...

FloggingMolly the poster had commented that s/he felt no need to justify their money on others who had what they wanted. And that is bitterness isn't it? Am I wrong? Isn't it petty to not just be glad that someone can do something when you can't? I can't ride a horse but I don't mind supporting injured Jockeys in the NHS.

I'm guessing 'astounding' post isn't something you consider good. Oh well.

I'm all for helping people thanks. I'm not however into wasting money on a lifestyle choice.

Fully aware it includes those who work. I work and don't receive benefits. Why should those on benefits who work be funded to have more children from my taxes when I can't afford to have them myself.

It's utterly ludicrous.

I am not so sure the abortion rate will rise.

Technically they are also subsidising themselves through being in work. Mind blown. Paying themselves to go to work. And if that multiple pregnancy means you have to have an abortion then you'd be fine with that yourself then? Or the accidental hole in the condom?