To think friends are being over-senstive?

[pomadas87]

A friend (who lives abroad) messaged me and a couple of our good mutual friends - he shared happy news of his new baby and some pics. Everyone v excited and wished him congratulations!

He then said "so who's next to have a baby - she needs a playmate!" ... me and DH are newly married and are getting the question quite a lot...! Other friend said "I'm looking at you guys" (meaning me and DH)...

I then said "not for a while I'm afraid why don't you have another one straightaway and you'll have Irish Twins - instant playmate!"

Meant it in a joking way and then they all called me a racist, xenophobe etc.... I didn't realise it was offensive and now I'm feeling shitty! Did they overreact to my (stupid) joke or am I just an idiot?!

One I'm very sad about it too. It makes me embarrassed to be English right this second tbh. Let's just hope those views are the minority talking

Today 08:44 OMGyoumustbekidding

Should one and winter start a band called "irish twins"?

OMG can you clarify you were mocking with this post?

I am Irish - who is telling you you can't speak? Precisely no one but I guess that's one way to shut down debate 'someone disagrees with me, they're telling me I can't speak'. Err no they are just giving their dissenting opinion, you are free to share yours.

The question is- why would anybody want to use a phrase that could Offend some Irish people due to the roots and history of the phrase?

There's just no need. There really isn't.

If an Irish person uses it, it's not really my place, as an English person, to pass comment. But for an English, Scottish, American... Person to use it; they are either unaware of its suggestive nature or are using it in a nasty way.

It's not about being professionally offended or shutting down discussion, it's about realising ones right to offend doesn't trump another persons right to be offended.

We're still not allowed our own voice. Irish, sit down and be quiet, the people who matter are speaking. sad the attitude that led to so much suffering in the world. It persists.

One I honestly don't know where you are coming from with this one. You don't speak for all Irish people (clearly going by this thread) but no-one is stopping you speaking for yourself. Other posters may not agree with you but this does not mean you are being shut down or prevented from having your say.

It's not about being professionally offended or shutting down discussion, it's about realising ones right to offend doesn't trump another persons right to be offended.

Genuine question here - at what point does someone taking offence and shutting down someone else's speech become an infringement on the other persons rights to free speech? It's a very common debate in the US due to their prized free speech beliefs.

I suspect some of the Irish with a problem with this term are actually second generation Irish who feel more keenly their discrimination due to living in England. Certainly any of my Irish friends living long term in the U.K. or friends with Irish parents who have never lived in Ireland seem to be very uptight about their Irishness compared to people here. I've been quite shocked a few times at how nationalistic children of Irish parents are compared to the average born and raised in Ireland person. Just something I've come across a fair few times that I've pondered about.

No one is shutting down the speech though.

For me? Even if no Irish person on the planet was offended by the term 'Irish twins', I still wouldn't use it personally. That is because of the history of the term. What it implies. I have said up thread about my Irish in laws, they have used the term a couple of times and that was fine, but I personally would never repeat it.

There's just no need for it. It has no place. It's outdated.

I'm in no way trying to say Irish people should be offended by it. That is not up to me to say. But the fact that some Irish people are Offended by it, shows the negative roots of the phrase still resonate today.

You say about free speech- anyone can say what they like. But if someone used the n word? P word? They would be instantly shut down. Why is it ok to casually jibe at a nation that has a history of oppression such as the Irish? Is it because they are also Caucasian? I would love to know.

You say about free speech- anyone can say what they like. But if someone used the n word? P word? They would be instantly shut down. Why is it ok to casually jibe at a nation that has a history of oppression such as the Irish? Is it because they are also Caucasian? I would love to know.

I don't think it's ok to wilfully offend someone. I don't necessarily think there should be no limits on free speech but it's something I struggle with as it's a complicated issue.

I've been clear about that in previous posts when I've said that in certain contexts of course I'd find the phrase offensive. I don't think it's ok to casually jibe at someone in that manner and my personal approach to someone seeking to offend me for example would be to either tell them I was offended and why, seek some sort of remedy if relevant (anti racism legislation/harassment could be used against the examples you give) or dissassociate myself from them or some combination of those actions. Context again would dictate how I'd approach it.

Someone just started a thread about golliwogs, why don't all the "don't be ridiculous, Irish twins isn't bad, you're just professionally offended" people go and explain that golliwogs are just fine, and they have black friends who love them.

No, thought not. Different somehow isn't it?

I started off this thread not being bothered by the term, other than thinking it was old fashioned and a little off, but hearing so many people get bothered by other people getting bothered has pushed me right over towards the more offended side.

I wouldn't presume to tell someone offended by Golliwogs not to be offended by them. I'm not the target of such an object.

I am Irish however so I feel justified commenting on this thread.

Yes, I agree context is important. Some people probably say it genuinely not really knowing what it implies/ how it started. Heard it once from a friend of a friend or something, you get the idea.

The problem starts when an Irish person says 'actually, I do find it offensive. It had a negative meaning historically and I would prefer you didn't say it', but that person continues to use it.

Free speech is a very difficult area I agree. There's nothing stopping People continually using such a phrase, English or otherwise. But knowing what we know, it would be much kinder of people to just think now and again.

Inifinity I hope that isn't the impression you have got from me. As I have said before, if an Irish person wants to use the phrase, it's not my place to comment. Again, if an Irish person is not offended by its use, not my place. The problem lies where things like 'oh you're just professionally offended... My uncles wife's best friend is Irish and I'm not offended' stuff gets trotted out and it just sounds plain ignorant.

I agree jaxingjump.

It would be easy to develop this mindset as second generation irish people. I live in Scotland now (scottish parents) and would have said many of the things Diana and force are saying before moving here.

With an english accent it would be very easy for me to assign any discrimination towards englishness as a particular trait of scottish people, as it exists in a few of them. I just refuse to do so and treat people as I find them. Most people are not xenophobes.

Isn't that just another way of dismissing people? You're basically guessing at peoples origins and then attributing their reactions to your guesses. Even though you actually have no basis for any of it.
Kinda rude.

OMG you have no clue about the lives anyone on this thread has led.

As a Hackney girl I can assure you I have been ridiculed,mimicked, called names, people have assumed things about me based on where I'm from and how I talk.

I know how shit it is.

However, this is in no way comparable to the history of oppression that is linked to phrases like 'Irish twins'. No way at all.

Dismiss...probably... only based on my own experiences though. I suspect the "strong nationalism" will subside if you all move to ireland though, particularly if you do so during a period of unrest.

I don't know what it is like in ireland. I do know however that I lived a happy childhood somewhere genuine hatred was frowned upon. Tiny issues were blown out of all proportion by people with good intentions but a lack of understanding.

When you see genuine hatred (justified or not), these smaller issues seem much less of a concern.

You seem to be dismissing or forgetting that a lot of people answering you are in Ireland.

I have a couple of feverent scottish nationalists in my family. Neither of whom still live in scotland, and both would engage in a similar way over the Internet.
I do not see what there is to be gained from it.
I suspect it is something that happens when you want to feel closer to your roots.

When you see genuine hatred (justified or not), these smaller issues seem much less of a concern

They don't, actually. They are seen as part and parcel of the entire problem, which is exactly what they are.

It's a guess.... Probably a good one though.

Quite funny that I have had all this and I didn't even know the phrase and wouldn't advocate it's usage. Hahaha....

If you live in ireland winter then I accept you are one of the irish people offended by the phrase and the reason why I would discourage another person if I heard it used.

I'm not offended by it, as I've said many times. Irritated a tiny bit, yes.

What bothers me much more is the people defending it by telling other people they are ridiculous and silly, even when they don't even know why its not a very good thing to say.

I have not told people that they are ridiculous or silly. The history behind the phrase is such that it may offend some people. I do not advocate the use of it for that very reason.

I merely advocated against the blame game that occurred during the discussion, which I find to be unhelpful. I have said it only fans the flames of xenophobia.

Jaysus OMG, its not all about you. D'ye think maybe some comments are aimed at the hundred other people who commented on the thread?