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AIBU?

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Original poster

To think friends are being over-senstive?

999 replies

pomadas87 · 20/02/2017 18:51

A friend (who lives abroad) messaged me and a couple of our good mutual friends - he shared happy news of his new baby and some pics. Everyone v excited and wished him congratulations!

He then said "so who's next to have a baby - she needs a playmate!" ... me and DH are newly married and are getting the question quite a lot...! Other friend said "I'm looking at you guys" (meaning me and DH)...

I then said "not for a while I'm afraid Grin why don't you have another one straightaway and you'll have Irish Twins - instant playmate!"

Meant it in a joking way and then they all called me a racist, xenophobe etc.... I didn't realise it was offensive and now I'm feeling shitty! Did they overreact to my (stupid) joke or am I just an idiot?! Confused

OP posts:
OneWithTheForce · 21/02/2017 11:23

The debate here is in relation to whether or not it is offensive not whether the phrase exists or is meaningful.

If you can't understand that it is racist because it's not an actual thing then I can't help you.

ConferencePear · 21/02/2017 11:26

I sometimes think I live in a parallel universe. Growing up in the depths of the countryside the word knacker had no connection with the travelling community. There was a local 'knacker man' who took away and killed sick animals and his other job was to castrate male calves by removing their 'knackers'. What a minefield this is.
The posters who have said that it is all to do with intent are right I guess.

InfinityPlusOne · 21/02/2017 11:29

One I am Irish so I suppose you think I'm being racist again myself here? Also it's not racist as the Irish are not a separate race to the English but I agree it could be offensive if the context dictates. Like many things context is important.

SundialShadow · 21/02/2017 11:36

@InfinityPlusOne

Also it's not racist as the Irish are not a separate race to the English

Pardon?

OneWithTheForce · 21/02/2017 11:39

I'm Irish too. I find it offensive Coming from anyone who isn't Irish, but particularly from an English person given the context of the treatment (that still exists) of the Irish at the hands of the English. I actually think it's fine for Irish people to say to other Irish people or about themselves. It's entirely different than coming from an English person for obvious reasons. Irish twin is still not a thing.

InfinityPlusOne · 21/02/2017 11:46

That's pretty much exactly what I said One in my first post. Context is so important. I use it amongst my Irish friends and family but of course it could be offensive outside of that frame of reference, especially if used to be derogatory.

I'm not sure what the 'pardon' is for Sundial I don't believe the English and Irish are separate races but I suppose we can argue definitions. I could agree with the phrase being considered xenophobic certainly.

OneWithTheForce · 21/02/2017 11:50

Ok not sure why you're dusageeeing with me then if you actually agree.

MadMags · 21/02/2017 11:50

Mags I hope you have met lots of other englishmen, because the one you met sounds like a right knobhead.

I have done! I even married one! :) He's lovely. Only occasionally a knobhead.

I think rather than be deliberately obtuse Infinity we can assume that people mean xenophobic, and not racist.

The fact of the matter is whether you personally find it offensive or not, someone else does. And generally, if you unwittingly offend someone by saying something disparaging about his race OR nationality, you should apologise and not do it again, no?

InfinityPlusOne · 21/02/2017 11:55

Because I do think the phrase has meaning and therefore is 'a thing'. It's possible to put two words together to describe something and imbue it with meaning in that way. However, I think this is getting a bit pedantic One as we are just debating over a side issue rather than the main point re offensiveness, on that point we agree.

OneWithTheForce · 21/02/2017 11:58

OK, we'll have a think about where that phrase came from. Do you think it was the Irish who created it about themselves? Really think about that.

OneWithTheForce · 21/02/2017 11:59

Err again, how can you not see that the origins of the phrase are the reason why it's offensive? Hmm

OneWithTheForce · 21/02/2017 12:00

What exactly is the "side issue" in my posts?

Gabilan · 21/02/2017 12:01

I am Irish so I suppose you think I'm being racist again myself here?

It's possible to pick up on prejudice against a group of which you are a part and have some internalised subconscious bias against that group, yes. It's why women as well as men tend to judge women's achievements more harshly. It's also possible to be part of a group and not like that group e.g. I'm convinced Katie Hopkins is misogynist.

I'm not saying that applies to you in this instance, Infinity. If someone who is Irish is happy to use the phrase then that's their business. As an English person I would never use it - there's too great a risk that it would seem offensive coming from me. I think if you're part of a group which historically or presently is privileged then you need to be a bit more aware of how you use language which refers to those who have historically been less privileged.

It's also just not accurate. Irish twins are siblings born close together. Spasticism refers to muscle spasms, not someone you think is being a wally. Not all conjoined twins are from Siam and to imply that they are can also be seen as consigning a particular ethnic group to freak show status - given that conjoined twins from Siam travelled with a circus. I just think that when it comes to language, it does us no harm and probably a lot of good to think about the origins and implications of words.

InfinityPlusOne · 21/02/2017 12:04

I think rather than be deliberately obtuse Infinity we can assume that people mean xenophobic, and not racist.

I'm not being obtuse, words having meaning is the very basis of this discussion.

I'll just reiterate my point which was that context matters. Regardless of the origin of the phrase the context in which it is used nowadays is key. Between Irish people - fine I think we can agree that's not offensive unless someone is being a sneery ass about it. To an Irish person said by someone not Irish, possibly yes it would be offensive, especially if intended to be so.

If someone says something to you and you find it offensive for whatever reason then of course tell them so and ask for an apology if you want. I would judge the context personally before demanding an apology and if it was unwitting I would typically offer an explanation so that they don't use it again.

Aeroflotgirl · 21/02/2017 12:06

I read on page 4 that the op is going to apologise to her friends, fair enough, move on. This thread is up to page 16, some of which still barating the op. Move on!

DianaMemorialJam · 21/02/2017 12:07

My mum is Irish, dh dad is Irish and I am one half of 'Irish twins'. I'm also in possession of two of my own! I think we have said it once or twice but I wouldn't use it to other people.

We have had about a million 'don't you have a tv'/ 'you didn't hang about did you?!' Etc comments though Blush

InfinityPlusOne · 21/02/2017 12:09

I know the basis of the phrase. Whether it was coined by others to be sneery about the Irish or about the Irish themselves to describe a fairly common experience is what I'm sure of but I'd welcome any insight you have here.

InfinityPlusOne · 21/02/2017 12:09

What I'm unsure of

MadMags · 21/02/2017 12:11

Aero, I see general discussion as often happens, but no continual bashing of the OP.

OneWithTheForce · 21/02/2017 12:15

words having meaning is the very basis of this discussion.

Exactly, a twin is a very specific thing. Two siblings that occupied a uterus at the same time. Not 11 months apart. Twin does not apply to any siblings who didn't share the uterus. Regardless of their nationality.

Regardless of the origin of the phrase the context in which it is used nowadays is key.

That's where you are wrong. The origin of the phrase is how you define whether it is offensive or not. Unfortunately like so many offensive phrases they have persisted through generations of habitual use and many now don't actually know the origins of the word or phrase so they use them without a thought. That doesn't make the word inoffensive just because the user didn't know the origins and didn't intend to offend.

Aeroflotgirl · 21/02/2017 12:17

I have seen previously there has been.

OneWithTheForce · 21/02/2017 12:18

The phrase originated when masses of Irish people emigrated to England (and the US) during the 1800's. Perhaps that gives you a clue as to who coined it. (Clue, the Irish were aware of their own existence prior to the 1800's Wink)

OliveOilHelp · 21/02/2017 12:18

Infinity are you sure "knackered" is related to travellers? I think "knackered" is related to work horses being put down

InfinityPlusOne · 21/02/2017 12:24

I guess we won't agree on this One. To me words and phrases evolve and what once was offensive may no longer be, or may no longer be in certain contexts. I personally would judge a person intent and the context in which something is said before deeming it offensive. You believe the phrase is inherently offensive and context is irrelevant. That's entirely your prerogative, I simply disagree.

Riderontheswarm · 21/02/2017 12:24

I'm Irish and not at all offended. What is there to be offended about. Traditionally Irish families have had a lot of children. Growing up I knew a lot of people with 8, 9, 10 children in the family. Some siblings were born less than a year apart. It's just the way it was.

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