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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Fox says MN is a no go zone. Trump agrees. So it must be true.Trump thread continued.

999 replies

amispartacus · 20/02/2017 18:17

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2858149-Ami-Making-Mumsnet-great-again-Trump-cont

Continued.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 21/02/2017 15:02

Katie hopkins is a hypocrite

She spends all her time and gets paid to rip down just about everyone

That entire quotation of hers can be sent right back at her

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 21/02/2017 15:04

Just looked milo up as i had never heard of him

What a peach

merrymouse · 21/02/2017 15:05

It seems pretty clear that the Canadian responsible for the attack on the mosque was influenced by the on-line trolling community.

Trump has spoken out in support of Milo (before the latest revelations - more fool him), but apparently can't bring himself to condemn actual attacks which have clearly been carried out by people who align themselves with the far right.

What a mess.

merrymouse · 21/02/2017 15:22

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-sweden-donald-trump-rape-capital-of-europe-refugees-malmo-why-wrong-debunked-claim-a7591636.html

Predictably, anything spewed out by Trump is lapped up by Farage.

Lweji · 21/02/2017 15:30

Who's that Breitbart editor that pays trips to Malmo?
I reckon we should all apply and have a MN-Trump gathering there. :)

Great Independent article.

SenecaFalls · 21/02/2017 15:32

A lot of Protestant churches in the US are Calvinist in theology.

In Calvinist belief God has chosen those who will receive his salvation (the 'elect') ahead of time, and those he has chosen will have faith in God and be admitted to Heaven and everyone else goes to Hell. How good or virtuous or moral you are is irrelevant, if God has decided that you're not in the elect than you're out. It is faith (which is given to people by God, not achieved through any act of their own will) that is important, not how you behave.

It's a very different mindset from the liberal view of Christianity as being about doing good, following the golden rule, etc.

It’s much more complicated than that; most of the American mainstream churches in the Reformed tradition have moved away from “chosen” theology. And some are quite liberal. For example, the Presbyterian Church USA, a direct descendant of the Church of Scotland, solemnizes same sex marriages.

Much of Trump’s support is coming from the Christian right, which is composed mostly of fundamentalists, some of which are Calvinistic in origin, but many of which are not.

Lweji · 21/02/2017 15:33

Ups, sorry, Infowars
www.indy100.com/article/sweden-donald-trump-fox-news-report-7590166?utm_source=indy&utm_medium=top5&utm_campaign=i100

He seems to have had lots of responses by men. I think it would work better if females applied.

BiglyBadgers · 21/02/2017 15:37

From the article linked by cussing

"I think it's terrible," Trump said of the threats. "I think it's horrible. Whether it's anti-Semitism or racism or any — anything you wanna think about having to do with the divide. Anti-Semitism is, likewise, it's just terrible."

What on earth. I don't think that is actually saying anything at all. Hmm

cozietoesie · 21/02/2017 15:40

For 45, that's probably meant to be thoughtful, Bigly. Wink

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 21/02/2017 15:44

Off topic I know, but I was helping ds with his homework about the Great Wall of China and found this:

"Emperor Qin Shi Huang is often referred as the initiator of the Great Wall. Actually it was he who first commanded the linking of the separate sections built by previous states.

It is surprising to know that the decision for this huge project was made due to a rumor! After unifying central China and establishing the Qin Dynasty in 221BC, Emperor Qin Shi Huang wanted to consolidate his power and rule the country forever. He sent a necromancer named Lu Sheng to seek for a way of immortality. After countless empty-handed returns, Lu finally brought back a rumor that Qin would be overturned by the northern nomads. Hearing that, the Emperor was so frightened that he immediately issued an order to connect the walls and extend new ramparts to guard the northern border."

merrymouse · 21/02/2017 15:45

It sounds as though Trump is deliberately distancing himself from any recent increase in anti-semitism. He will only condemn it in very general terms.

cozietoesie · 21/02/2017 15:52

He has Jews inside his family grouping. I suspect that that makes a difference to any thoughts he has.

amispartacus · 21/02/2017 16:07

There is a study that I've read about sexist comedians. The idea is that if you go and see a sexist comedian and you are sexist and you are with people who laugh with the comedian, that helps you feel your views are acceptable and you are more likely to act in a sexist way.

I suspect you can swap 'sexist' with 'racist, homophobic' etc. You basically see your views as acceptable, accepted and that makes you more likely to feel empowered and validated.

Words don't kill....but they do. They give strength to people who feel that way and empower them.

But then people say that you are silencing others. That you are being ridiculous if you worry about that.

However - people who dismiss such concerns tend to be those who have not been on the end of 'other'. Who are unlikely to experience hate, racism, sexism, homophobia etc.

I am sick to death of people talking about freedom of speech. That sounds wrong - but those people who talk about freedom of speech tend to be the ones who have the biggest platform to spread their hate and their othering. Those people who are affected by it don't have big platforms.

I have no doubt that the words and behaviour of prominent politicians and commentators have influenced others to act out their beliefs through violence. No doubt at all. I am sure those people would say that they are just saying what they think - but it's dog whistle politics and I think it triggers people to act. It becomes acceptable.

I don't know how you tackle that issue. People will complain they are being silenced if they can't say what they want - but have they ever considered the consequences of their words and behaviour.

OP posts:
AcrossthePond55 · 21/02/2017 16:17

Nothing 'new' really, cozie. What we already know gets mentioned, but I think that at this point the info easily obtainable is already 'out there'. I'm just hoping there's a lot of 'digging' going on in the background that they're being quiet about.

This morning it's mostly about Trump (finally) 'condemning' the anti-semitism that's been going on lately and his appointment of McMasters.

I just don't 'get' the apparent anti-semitism in the far right. I expect I'm being very very very simplistic in my thinking, but since the Jews and Muslims seem to have a great deal of historical enmity towards each other, and since the alt-right sees the Muslim community as the 'greatest threat to Democracy today' you'd think they might see the Jewish Community as a 'natural' ally in the 'fight' against 'Islamic Terrorism' a la 'US/Russia/UK as allies' dynamics in WWII. Not that the Jewish Community would be interested in allying themselves with the alt-right. But I guess I'm being overly simplistic.

amispartacus · 21/02/2017 16:29

NY Times

www.nytimes.com/2017/02/20/world/europe/trump-pursues-his-attack-on-sweden-with-scant-evidence.html

One of his viewers agreed, and in that moment was born a diplomatic incident that illustrates the unusual approach that President Trump takes to foreign policy, as well as the influence that television can have on his thinking. After watching the program, Mr. Trump threw a line into a speech the next day suggesting that a terrorist attack had occurred in Sweden the night before.

Just like that, without white papers, intelligence reports, an interagency meeting or, presumably, the advice of his secretary of state, the president started a dispute with a longtime American friend that resented his characterization and called it false. The president’s only discernible goal was to make the case domestically for his plans to restrict entry to the United States.

The Swedes were flabbergasted.

We are used to seeing the president of the U.S. as one of the most well-informed persons in the world, also well aware of the importance of what he says,” Carl Bildt, a former prime minister of Sweden, said by email on Monday. “And then, suddenly, we see him engaging in misinformation and slander against a truly friendly country, obviously relying on sources of a quality that at best could be described as dubious.”

While aides sought to clarify that Mr. Trump’s remarks were about a rising tide of crime in general, rather than any particular event or attack, the president chose to escalate. In a Twitter post on Monday, he accused American journalists of glossing over a dark and dangerous situation in Sweden. “Give the public a break,” he wrote. “The FAKE NEWS media is trying to say that large scale immigration in Sweden is working out just beautifully. NOT!”

Sweden’s prime minister, Stefan Lofven, responded hours later at a news conference, noting that Sweden ranks highly on international comparisons of economic competitiveness and human development.

OP posts:
PausingFlatly · 21/02/2017 16:32

You're looking for too much rationality there, Across.

The rhetoric against Jewish people in the early C20th was that they were simultaneously:
a) bankers
b) Communists.

This is one of my touchstones when I need to remember that it really, really isn't about facts or rational thought.

Deejoda · 21/02/2017 16:44

I wouldn't be surprised if the perpetrators have no real understanding of the differences between Judaism and Islam. Both originated in the middle east (I know christianity did too but we all know how Jesus has been 'whitened'), women in both traditionally cover their bodies and are 'subservient' to their men and the men wear funny little hats. I think they are that simpleConfused

AcrossthePond55 · 21/02/2017 16:46

Good point, Flatly. I also think that part of it is that (in the US) we've pretty much been spoon-fed 'Israel good, Palestine bad'. At least, that was the way it was when I was younger. The feeling was that "Jews are just like us, except no Jesus!" and "Muslims worship Mohammed, they are heathens!". I think hope most people are a bit more open-minded now, though.

On another issue, I hope Sweden doesn't let up on Trump. Theoretically there's nothing about Sweden that his 'base' can finger point at to 'other' them. They're a (historically) white, Christian, 'free enterprise', 'western values' country. The worse they'll be able to say about them is that they're 'lefties' because of their progressive social views.

cozietoesie · 21/02/2017 16:52

And they'll likely say that, I fear. They've 'gone native' and are no longer 'pure'.

yeOldeTrout · 21/02/2017 17:05

Am I the only one who wants to link this story to Chump's speeches?

Destinysdaughter · 21/02/2017 17:07

Of course words are dangerous, have a look at Allport's Ladder of Prejudice:

www.davidlarsonis.me/social-studies/social-studies-in-the-grade-8/human-rights/the-ladder-of-prejudice-gordon-w-allport/

FarAwayHills · 21/02/2017 17:11

I am amazed Trump hasn't tweeted something about the today's incident in Barcelona, which in a bizarre twist it involves a Swede. Perhaps this hasn't made it on to Fox yet.

Swede detained after Barcelona police fire on stolen butane gas truck
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39037674

Destinysdaughter · 21/02/2017 17:13

The Ladder of Prejudice – Gordon W. Allport

The Nature of Prejudice: The Escalating Levels of Prejudice

In his book The Nature of Prejudice psychologist Gordon W. Allport describes a kind of ladder of negative actions that spring from prejudice. It is interesting to compare how the ladder of prejudice worked in the past and how it works today. It is possible to see parallels in history that help to explain or clarify what happened in Nazi Germany.

Allport’s Ladder of Prejudice:

  1. Spoken Abuse—the first rung on the ladder of negative actions is speech. This often takes the form of talking or joking about a group as if all members of that group were one personality or had one set of features. Spoken abuse includes all of the following:

• Degrading names

• Verbal attack

• Stereotyping

• Music/songs that are degrading

• Jokes

• Rumors

• Ascribing evil motives and behaviors to a whole group/class of people

  1. Avoidance—is the second rung of the ladder. At this level people seek to avoid the group which has been stereotyped. Like speech, this seems harmless in the beginning. One has the right to choose one’s friends, and choosing not to be friends with a particular group of people does not seem so awful. The trouble is that lack of contact and friendship with a group leads to ignorance about them. Ignorance, in turn, leads to stereotyping, fear, and prejudice.

Avoidance includes the following:

Avoiding homes, schools, and churches
Avoiding businesses and recreation areas/activities
Boycotting *
This separation/avoidance breeds fear and increases negative feelings

  • Boycott—a group refusal to have dealings with a certain person, store, organization, race, etc. in order to express disapproval or to force acceptance of certain conditions. (Please Note: Boycott has been used as both a positive force to fight prejudice and a negative force to express prejudice.)
  1. Acts of Discrimination—avoidance leads to the third rung, discrimination. The unwanted group is now kept out of some neighborhoods, shopping areas, social clubs, schools, churches, gathering places, and public centers. Laws are enacted to enforce this discrimination and make it legal for society to discriminate.

Institutional Racism = Legalizing prejudice, which includes the following:

Treating others as legally inferior
Segregation laws
All types of institutional racism, sexism, age-ism, etc.
Making legal distinctions that deny rights to others

  1. Physical attack on people and property—such physical attack may be a mob’s expression of anger or resentment. It may take the form of gang warfare resulting from prejudice, or it may take the form of defacing buildings or places of worship. Physical attack includes all violence to people or property based on hatred, fear, ignorance, and revenge. (When institutional racism is prevalent in a society, physical attack is likely to go unpunished and may even be encouraged.)

• Such groups as the KKK and the neo-Nazis use forms of physical attack to frighten and intimidate their victims, such as burning crosses, painting swastikas on synagogues, inciting riots, gay bashing, etc.

• On the ladder of prejudice, the steps may be short between speaking against a group and attacking it physically.

  1. Genocide/extermination—the final step in the ladder of prejudice escalates from murder to genocide and includes lynching, massacre, mass murder, and attempting to annihilate members of an unwanted group.

Genocide = The systematic attempt to destroy an entire people

(Please Note: The actual word genocide was first used at the end of World War II during the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials to describe the Nazi attempt to destroy the Jewish people.)

BagelGoesWalking · 21/02/2017 17:17

Jewish/anti-demotion issue:

I think many alt-right and also many "normal" people still believe that:

  • Jews control the media so all news is FAKE news
  • Jews control the banking system, therefore responsible for sub-prime disaster etc. Easy when Goldman-Sachs are the most "famous" names mentioned (although how do they explain so many GS alumni in Trump's camp?)
  • Jews have stronger loyalty to Israel than America so can't really be trusted