Pensioners now better of than working families - is this right?

[TeaCake5]

www.theguardian.com/money/2017/feb/13/pensioners-now-20-a-week-better-off-than-working-households

What do you think? I think that this is going to cause more resentment in the medium term.

The younger generation generally inherit from the older generation anyway, so any wealth will get passed down (bar today's pensioners having to pay for their own social care if they have much money). If they got lucky with house equity, pensions etc, generally their childten/ grandchildren will also benefit.

Think Age UK would give a different picture.

Know lots of elderly people who are really struggling.

I suspect the cost of housing is distorting the results as (a) cost of housing has been rising year on year for some time and (b) more elderly people own their own home and therefore do not have this additional burden, which takes up a bigger chuck of families' disposable income.

Pension disparity is of course and issue, as is property wealth and inheritance.

However, gross oversimplification to see it as simply an intergenerational thing.

Another oversimplification (this time, mine), but I think we are generally becoming a more unequal society.

I think it is appalling that people who have worked all their lives and contributed fully into the NI system found themselves in the position on their retirement that they couldn't get their pension entitlement. Having planned and budgeted for this, the government changed the rules. Fair enough to tell 21 year olds that they need to sort out private pensions - but to drop a change on those ill prepared for it is so wrong.
If some pensioners find themselves better off, it is because they have worked, saved and 'made do' most of their lives - not because they have taken something from others.
There is a problem .......but it is people taking benefits out of a fund they have not contributed to.

Absolutely Tapandgo they've nicked 6 years' pension from me, and I've never taken a penny off the state, and I've paid higher rate tax for much of my working life. I want a bloody free bus pass after all that.

"The calculation made by the Resolution Foundation is for household income after housing costs. Before housing costs are taken into account, working-age households still have higher incomes than pensioner households."

What a pointless statement - or are housing costs suddenly irrelevant/not applicable?

Correct user 147. I've no state pension either and have never been unemployed. Landed with kids uni fees without any advance warning to prepare for it and no access to NHS dental care because I can't find one with 'vacancies'. All the things you were told when working you were contributing to, so you could benefit from, has been pulled away. My kids know they have to put money aside to protect themselves in the future ( though there is no sensible interest rate to encourage savings) - that is not what the now 60+ generation were told was necessary. Their lifelong contributions into NI was meant to be their safeguard. Sadly there are people happy to take from that 'safeguard' fund that have never put a brass farthing into it.

My parents are better off than we are but the did work v hard for it. That said, my mother often says that her generation had the best of everything - grants for the education of their children and the best of employment, NHS and pension systems. There is definitely some truth to that. Retirement at 60 is a pipedream now.

Urgh... the welfare state is not an individual insurance scheme where people get out what they have put in, that's what private insurance is about. The point of the welfare state is to stop vulnerable people falling into extreme poverty, which is bad for society for a huge number of reasons. Fact is the vast majority of people never pay in more than they take from the state because there is so much inequality even if they are a high rate tax payer. So all the people saying stupid things like 'people have paid in all their lives and are being short-changed by scroungers' need to pause to think for a moment because where that argument leads is to the 90% of the population who are net takers from the state rather than contributors therefore not being entitled to a pension or anything else and only the very privileged few who don't usually need the welfare state being the ones who are entitled to anything back.

NI was set up specifically to provide for workers who paid into the scheme in their hours of need - whether illness, unemployment or retirement. It then became expanded to fund institutions like the NHS and unemployment benefits (amongst other things). Problem is there are people taking from the pot who have never contributed - the pot isn't bottomless and those who have contributed in good faith find the pot unavailable to them at the time they were told they could have it. Putting up retirement age at such short notice is a real blow, many find they have to keep working beyond what they feel able to while others have to live without a pension and the other benefits it triggers like bus passes. Older people continuing to work on however can close up job opportunities for younger people.
It's not the full story of course - there are many things our government(s) could stop throwing money at - but maybe that's for another thread. But the question is about the lot of pensioners - and the fact many cannot get the pension entitlements they were promised and contributed to or access the services they paid into for around 45 years of working life.

I was state educated, went to university on a full grant [my parents were financially in the bottom 10% of the working class] and worked full time for forty four years, during which time I paid my taxes, had a grand total of four months' sick leave and invested only in a professional pension scheme. Aged 73 I have the old age pension and a professional pension worth about £14,000 a year. To run a car, take holidays and enjoy theatre and concert-going I still need to work part time, and earn +/- £6,000 a year as a GCE, GCSE and International Baccalaureate examiner. I neither resent this nor feel I deserve any credit for it - that is the way my financial ball has bounced, although I do wonder from time to time how long it will go on. I only started posting on this site a couple of weeks ago, and already I am struck by how many of its subscribers are fuelled by petty resentment, envy and a total aversion to minding their own business.

In 1947 we had the most babies born of any year. They also started the NHS

70 years they have had to plan, for 70 years they knew those babies would get old and need care then draw a pension.

Nordic countries put away their North sea oil money

We pissed it up the wall in the 80s &90s without so much of a thought about the future.

If other countries could safeguard the future there was no reason at all why we couldn't as a nation

I can see both sides of this discussion. I was born in 1944 and dh in 1936. I grew up on a council housing estate in a Durham pit village. Dad was a factory worker but was disabled by multiple sclerosis by the time I was 11.
I was lucky I passed the 11+ , went to a decent Grammar School and to college. I became a teacher and taught for 40 years. I was widowed aged 41 but remarried at 44. I have 5 dc/sdc, no savings, no mortgage (helped dc with starting out) all dc have degrees, careers and most important are happily married with dc of their own. All are home owners(mortgaged of course). We have good pensions both state and public sector and we live comfortably and happily. We don't do debt so could never afford a big holiday abroad but we we usually have a week somewhere and a weekend break or two.
I am very aware that free Higher Education was a massive benefit for us and to a lesser extent our dc (all in their 40s now). I doubt any of them will be able to retire before 67/8 and university fees for their children will be crippling. We are the lucky generation though we grew up with rationing, parents struggling to keep going and a holiday was 'away for days' as in a trip to Redcar or a walk 'down the Bunny Banks'. No phones, no family car, no TV but my word we looked after family and I can't imagine anyone begrudging the elderly a bit of comfort.

Hi Strygil I did examining until last year and that money was a great help but the syllabus changed, marking online happened and, despite being asked to sign up again I have finally finished.

I'm 2 years off what should have been my pensionable age when I first started work and paying into "the pension pot". I have worked full time up until the last 2 years. I have never claimed anything g apart from 4 weeks maternity allowance (had to return to work as had a mortgage to pay). My kids have nice things when we have money spare and have learned to do without when things have been tight. My parents and my husband's parents all worked hard and paid their dues. Both my parents died and o LG my fil is still here but in a home with dementia that is costing my bills and oh £1200 per week out of what was supposed to be their inheritance. I do not have a work pension and now have to wait another 8 years before I can have a state pension that I have paid into for over 40 years! As a child I lived in council housing and although my parents worked long hours we didn't always have a lot of money. My life has been easier than theirs but I have always worked. I will not feel guilty when/if I get my pension and can spend it on whatever I like because my house will be paid for and my kids earning their own living. Why shouldn't pensioners be "well off" if they've worked and paid their dues. There are plenty of wasters living good lives on the "state" having never paid in a penny (or their parents) so good on those that had the good sense to invest or work hard to reap the benefits edits now!

Hello Strygil and GreyLady, another one here born in 1944. Our big piece of luck is that we are all still alive, active and happy.

Strygil MN is an open forum - people post to give and take in other people's opinions and yes are nosy about other people's lives. No different to any other forum...suggest not the right place for you if you hate the posters and vibe.

Hi TrickyD nice to meet another oldie on here. I tried Gransnet but it wasn't for me. I love the variety of topics and the range of opinions on here.

Sorry but we all claim something, whether it be NHS treatment for pregnancy to education or sick pay, maternity leave or getting perscribe or dental treatment - all these benefits come from taxation.

It's ok to claim something and not go private, nothing wrong with it

"I am struck by how many of its subscribers are fuelled by petty resentment, envy and a total aversion to minding their own business." True, too true, but someone has to keep the AIBU boards busy

It is true that retired people are more likely to have paid off mortgages than working people, making housing costs lower. Many of them got onto the housing ladder very early, not just because housing was cheaper, but because they gave it top priority. I became a home-owner at 23 when I first got married. It was several years before we owned a car, television, telephone or washing machine! Most of today's twenty-somethings do not have the same single-mindedness and have much more choice in how to live their lives. In our day it was the easiest way to escape one's parents. Also, a lot of us have gone through life unburdened by debt (barring mortgages) because we learned to manage with the income we had before credit became readily available.

As somebody upthread pointed out, it was well known that there was a boom in births after the war. The resulting boom in pensioner numbers now was predictable and should have been planned for, and the money from north sea oil and gas used to invest heavily in the state pension fund. Instead, in the 80s and 90s investments were not made and stock-market "growth" was relied on. Now the state pension fund is in a mess. There is no excuse for the inadequate notice that pension age had to rise. It was a result of demographics and poor planning.

So don't blame our generation or anyone else's. Just use your vote carefully and make sure that the party you vote for really cares about the long-term interests of ordinary people.

Nannieann - you tell us to vote carefully but it was the people who voted in the 70/80/90s that chose governments that didn't invest to pay boomer pensions. The irony. If I follow your generation's example I should make sure I vote and lobby for selfishness.

The whole think that gets me about this is that people in their 60s are NOT OLD. If you are not old then you shouldn't retire. You are not old when you are on average 2/3rds through your life. In the middle of the last century you were near the end of your life in your 60s.

Blame never gets us anywhere really. I don't however agree that most young mothers even those who wisely work full time and keep up a career and earnings on here will be as well off as older people now are because first of all our retirement age will be nearer 70 if not older and secondly plenty will have no additional pension so that will just be £150 a week state pension, nothing else, not the £14k on top of that someone mentions above.

The one this the old and young do have in the UK is a good sense of self reliance and in fact younger people today have even more of that - they know they will have to loko after Jack (or Jill) and they cannot expect much of a welfare state. Someone above mentioned even for those of us still in work the "deal" we thought we had has gone. When i started work retirement age for women was 60 and now mine is 67 (not that I can stop work then as I work for myself and will work until I die - my father worked full time to 77) - the state changes the rules all the time. I am about to pay over the next 3 years £150,000 for the twins' university education for example - that was not budgeted for. However I don't agree things were easy in the past either. Of my year at school most did not go to university atll. only 15% of people did so it was not the case that everyone had full grants and in my case we certainly didnt' and my parents worked very hard indeed to pay me the sum a "full grant" would have been. The other 85% didn't get to university at all so hardly benefited from "free" university - instead it was no university for the vast majority.

Silverduck

Thanks for your reply.

The couple of points I was trying to make were :

1. Spending priorities, which can be very different for different cohorts, can make a big difference to people's circumstances in later life.

1. Governments operate short-termism because of our electoral system. Disastrous choices made in the 80s and 90s and lack of foresight have resulted in the current pensions crisis.

I agree with you that if people are in good health in their 60s, there is no reason for them to retire. However, a significant number are not. Others may prefer to make way for younger people in what is a very crowded job market.

For the record, I try to use my vote sensibly for the long term good of society as far as I am able to understand it. I don't vote from self-interest as that isn't my political belief.

No it's not right. This is more lie it - www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38970227

Nearly a third of households on inadequate income - which includes nearly 2 million pensioners and 6 million children. It is possible for families AND pensioners to be struggling.

This is all pointless - people now or then do not get to decide on how well they do or don't do.... some that have done well are pensioners some aren't. Instead of fueling an anti older argument that seems to be going on in the media and everywhere at present and suggesting that rather than your parents- or your grandparents being OK as you wish to be in your retirement, we should all stop a race to the bottom and say these safeguards are what everyone wants/needs and we are prepared to pay for it as a national priority- stop voting for low taxes etc. There is no gain without pain - you want pensions and comfortable retirements we all have to increase what we pay, be that via a private pension or state funding. I've done it via saving and private pensions in 40 years of work we had one family holiday as the rest went towards old age. I didn't go to Uni my parents couldn't afford it, one of my kids did funded by us - the other chose not to waste the money and ironically has the better job!! When we should have had some disposable income my parents care had to be paid for, bang went my retirement fund. There was inequality there as I had an uncle with similar care needs - he'd earned more than my Dad but he chose to spend spend spend in his middle years so the safety net paid for his care, my parents chose to save save save so they had to be funded and I couldn't sell my old Mums home from under her so we paid for her. My kids won't afford to do that for me so I ought to take my Mums advice and live for today spend it all now like my Uncle. Only I don't trust the safety net will be there, I contracted with the state to take a pension at 60 - now I'm almost there they've put that up to 66 with no notification- in my trade your out to grass at 40 so I'm struggling to stay in work to bridge the finance gap. I can't downsize if I wanted to - no buyers for houses that aren't "starter homes" and no small houses with gardens being built. Gardening is my leisure pursuit and exercise so I can't and don't want to live in a flat.... who does except young singles?? Every generation has its unique issues, always has, I remember my Dad commenting on how he worried for the next generation with the way the National debt was growing, as his Dad did with house prices going up out of the range of ordinary folk, as I do now about wages not keeping pace for my children. Taking what pensioners do have away won't make it better or easier for those behind, it'll be just something more you won't get because it will be gone. What needs to happen is for society to decide what is important for the state to finance - so pensions, benefits, health care etc. do it, and everyone pays the true cost of providing it, scrap everything else if needs be so maybe that means no army or overseas aid or whatever society decides... stop blaming previous generations for their good fortune or not. It's largely down to politicians - me and my parents had no more say in where the money went or not than my children do now - I and everyone I knew were anti right to buy, that didn't stop it happening any more than your objection to say the closure of the NHS will stop that. We are all just pawns in short term games and this "race to the bottom" on pensioners is another big manipulation - don't take it away - demand you get it too. Bring back decent wages and final salary pensions if that's what you want/ need ... I expect you'll get the crippling unemployment, company bankruptcies and soaring interest rates we did as a consequence, but that's part of choice, which is something no one is giving to anyone, and haven't for many many years, I can't remember being asked if I wanted to end final salary pension schemes or I was prepared to pay more for one it just happened. I won't be asked if I want the state pension to end - they'll just axe it or outsource it into oblivion based on generational sour grapes rows as on here.