To be ashamed of the Labour Party leadership

[20nil]

Long term member, did not support Corbyn, but even I am surprised by quite how bad he's been.

Where is the opposition? I get that Brexit is difficult, but where is Labour on the collapse of the NHS, the explosion of homelessness, the decimation of local council funding and the ticking bomb that is school funding?

Why is it that we now look to the Lords, the Cof E and petitions to be the opposition?

Shocking state of affairs.

Cannot believe some labour voters are still defending Corbyn and are deluded enough to actually think he could win an election.

Just unbelievable really.

show me an opinion poll

There was an important official poll which showed Corbyn many points ahead. He has twice been elected leader.

Shall we act to manipulate the process in order to assure a Starmer win as leader?

Like him or not, Jeremy Corbyn's landslide victories, and I think he would win again, are important. I took part in these elections and recall our rallies. There were nutty kids with Mohawks and che shirts there. There were bearded guys in unfashionable clothes, and women with Jesus sandals. And there were wheelchairs and canes and oxygen bottles. There were all sorts of people.

We had come to support and elect Jeremy because our system is not representing us. Our once family, the Liberal democrats, had thrown thier lot with those punishing the poor and old and young. Our own leadership, people like Darling, were saying the same things as those people. Adopting thier morally bankrupt platforms, the policies shown by the failure of systems to be unsound.

Blue Labour supports policies still in place from Thatcher. These policies do not work. They appear to during bubbles, but when the bubble bursts, as they always do, the rich consolidate and the rest suffer.

It has been discussed previously on this thread why many of us will not stand with Corbyn, if thats what you mean by standing with those who are fighting to undo the damage. I would put money on the fact that many of the people on this thread also do practical activity within their own community. That's why we are so bloody annoyed, we know what it takes to get Labour in power, we have done the door knocking, it has been proved time and time again that Corbyn and his supporters don't get the votes out so I will not join them to wave their placards in the air.

make its irrelevant that the people who recently joined labour would vote for Jeremy! That's supposing that some joined to just cause trouble for labour and have succeeded by the way.

It's about the vast majority of voters out in the country who see an old hippy with a Marxist cap totally failing to lead his party, gain the respect of his colleagues or offer any credible opposition to the tories. His failure to stand on a platform with Cameron and support remain was unforgivable.

He was at a CND rally on day 1 of the campaign ffs.

Seriously I would love to be wrong but o think anyone who truly thinks labour can win a general election with Corbyn are deluded.

Make those at the rallies are such a small amount of people his support isn't enough to ever get him elected as PM as so many will not vote for him

But it is enough to keep the Tories in power in the next general election

and it's been proved that it is enough to allow him to lead a very very poor opposition

And lots of people like rally's and demos and jog along to them. Lots of people like shiny new ideas.

It's totally different to spend your free time knocking on doors and leafleting. That's hard work and often you get abuse.

Can't see many of these 'new' members doing it.

And there are no shiny new ideas either. Just glitter not gold.

kondo I actually find your post really insulting. You know fuck all about us. As it happens, I actively campaign against cuts to the NHS, education etc... I canvass, leaflet, volunteer, am a school governor, trade unionsist, for example. I don't read the right wing press FFS . Like other people on this thread, I've also faced criticism from new members who do fuck all actual work for the Party.

We are complaining because we are in despair at the lack of coherent opposition while the country burns.

kondo

Strongly suggest you start to read the whole thread before you comment again. All your points have been discussed.

Ask you a question now.

How old are you and when did you join the Labour Party?

kondo

Strongly suggest you start to read the whole thread before you comment again. All your points have been discussed.

Ask you a question now.

How old are you and when did you join the Labour Party?

Well said 20nil and Rugby. It is insulting.

Rtft kondo. It addresses all your points including why some of us won't campaign under Corbyn.

When you have, come back and tell us the response you have had on the doorstep re JC- I assume you have been out campaigning given your exhortations to others, perhaps in Stoke or Copeland.

Make the polls stink. Truly terrible. Link to a reliable source that says otherwise? They are consistently predicting a large majority for May. No one has explained where the victories will come from.

Its is annoying and a diversion

Blue Tory, Tory light, right wing press

there is such a poor argument in support of Corbyn as leader of the Labour Party not much can be said

And I find Blue Labour a bit off, I'm afraid.

More moderate than you, more pragmatic than you'd like, sure. The party's support is and should be a broad church because there aren't enough hard lefters to achieve government.

So you leave off the lazy Blue Labour labels, we'll continue not to sneer about culty Corbynistas, and we can preserve the only calm Corbyn/Labour's future discussion on the internet. Deal?

Make, I aged about how exciting it is/could be to see politics geeed up by a wave of enthusiasm from people who have never felt it was for them.

But I also see people on twitter calling clive Lewis and Simon fletcher right wing. And using the endless insulting tropes we have seen on this thread. But no one explaining how JC can win. And as as been said before, many people have doubts about JCs integrity and principles and again these are never addressed. No one forced him to invite hezbolllah to Westminster or call for art50 to be triggered immediately. And the only response to those is MSM - which is nonsense, he has discussed the first and there is video of the second. So until I see some JC supporters address this somewhere, have to wonder how engaged they are.

The institute of fiscal studies recently released a study showing the terrible predicament we are in. Even with increased cuts in public spending we will not be able to meet demands. There is simply no money left. If we continue today's model, we face decades of deeper and deeper cuts. If you are thinking that we can continue with today's basic model, but with a tweak here or there for social care and education, the numbers don't work.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/07/uk-tax-burden-will-rise-highest-level-30-years-ifs-warns/

Make, yes but your position seems to be to continue to support a leader that you cannot say has a chance of winning the next GE and in the meantime is providing appalling opposition (and failed to support Remain and failed to oppose hard Brexit and leaving the single market). The response to the much-loathed TB yesterday, spelling out pretty obvious points really, shows what a vacuum there is. Alistair Campbell has just published a list of 48 questions on Brexit. We should have been bombarded wth this stuff for months from the official opposition.

Agree Make but can't you see that JC is doing fuck all to address any of this? Where are the big policy ideas, the joined up thinking about the NHS, education and so on? Saying that the existing system is failing is easy; proposing new, feasible ideas is the role of a good leader and that's not him. I really do wish it was. I long for a credible leader.

Absolutely. JC gives the impression that he is far happier at rallies, protesting in an echo chamber with like minded souls and agreeing that capitalism and the evil banks are to blame.

Ask for a plan to fix it, and there's nothing in the cupboard.

Well I will offer an idea. Can/will Starmer make a binding pledge, that concurrent with efforts to put in place stop-gap measures to immediately reverse cuts to health/social care/education/etc, he will also begin dismantling the failed financial/economic system that has lead to these problems in the first place? Or, as many of us suspect, would small placations be made, and like the Big Society, business as usual- the business as usual which has put us in this dark corner- again become the norm?

The New Labour stalwarts could at least open up this line of dialogue, but they don't seem willing.

You guys keep asking me for thoughts on Corbyn, let me ask, if I could wave my wand and put you in power, what would you do to fix the economy?

I'm not a new Labour stalwart. I want a leftist candidate, a credible one. It's not our job to come up with detailed policy. It's JC's and he's not doing it.

make seriously would you just answer the bloody question?

Repeated avoidance hints strongly that you know he's a no-hoper, but you'd rather fail gallantly than compromise a bit and win. Tell me if I'm wrong.

As for your idea - might work, as long as it was clear what the replacement was and what the advantages would be. And whether it's even possible in a global economy. You need (and I realise Brexit bucked the trend on this) people to know what they're voting for.

And I admit to not having a plan myself. But that's ok, because I'm not punting myself up as the potential next PM. Unlike others I could name...

God knows, Make ( well, I do have a few ideas)....Which is why I want my party to be led by people with good, big and credible ideas. And I know the NHS and social care challenges will require new thinking, not just turning the clock back.

What actual policies and legislative plans do you want the next leader to promise to replace the current system with? Can you link to some serious analysis about whatever system it is - I am really interested (and back later!)?

You guys keep asking me for thoughts on Corbyn, let me ask, if I could wave my wand and put you in power, what would you do to fix the economy?

1. No-one in their right mind would put me in power, magic wand, book of spells, whatever to hand.

1. I do not want to be in power.

1. I do want the numpty elected to be shadow-in-power to do the job he's being paid to do and provide a decent opposition before I'll trust him in a position where he really is in power!

Next irrelevant diversion tactic?

And nor am I a New Labour stalwart - I rejoined the party AFTER Blair and Brown were off the scene. Nor are Jess Phillips et al. Stop with the stereotyping please - you are playing the woman not the ball!

Given our main problem with JC et al is the perceived preference for a utopian vision rather than actually knuckling down, making a plan and doing shit...

...i don't think repeated diversions and evasions are helping the cause, make.

No Starmer would not begin to dismantle the financial/economic system we have as to do so would cost the country billions and billions and can only be done by hugely increased taxes for all Labour would be kicked out come the next election

He would reverse cuts and I believe put in place more stringent policies for financial institutions (he would have to work with them not against them) and a small increases in income tax to help support this