To be ashamed of the Labour Party leadership

[20nil]

Long term member, did not support Corbyn, but even I am surprised by quite how bad he's been.

Where is the opposition? I get that Brexit is difficult, but where is Labour on the collapse of the NHS, the explosion of homelessness, the decimation of local council funding and the ticking bomb that is school funding?

Why is it that we now look to the Lords, the Cof E and petitions to be the opposition?

Shocking state of affairs.

I don't understand why large parts of the left have decided that immigration is the hill that they want to die on.

flip she did and wants to try more 'foreign' food now. Long way from our 70s findus fish and tin mixed veg.

make pity he didn't stand on the platform with Cameron and say that to the electorate in general instead of addressing meetings of loyal supporters. He needed to get his hands dirty. Too late now

make, I've always thought Corbyn had the right ideas, although I've seen very little to suggest they're more than ideas. I also think he's shite at selling them.

So my fear (and I wish and hope I'm wrong) is that it doesn't matter what he says, no-one apart from the people he's already convinced are buying from him.

Which means Labour will lose. And it's all pointless.

I don't like this world, but it's the one we're operating in so wishing it were different achieves sod all. We need to find ways to get ideas across better, and sadly I think that means a leader who's more effective in today's world.

Yes agree Tea

Yes, thank you for explaining your views, Make - I agree with PP that there is common ground and it is great to have this discussion.

I don't want to put myself but I live in one of the strongest Remain areas, with one of the most diverse and changing populations, where the local right wing Labour MP has made a strong case for immigration, economically, culturally and socially but also hasn't been afraid to point out when things are not working on the ground as well as they should be. He is a slimy so and so but he's done ok in this I think .

Because David the reality is that we will continue to have immigration. No point opposing it when the country cannot function without it. Even Brexiters are now admitting this.

And on immigration, Corbyn managed to spend the day of his relaunch contradicting himself on it.

I think the problem a lot of people have with immigration is how stretched the job market, public services feel in their particular area but instead of putting blame on the government for they way theyve allowed it to happen with out providing the increased funding to those particular areas, this is whats helped UKIP gain some (although I think its over inflated how much interest theyve been given) ground with the blame the forriners attitude and like the 'labour crashed the economy' crap that was spouted this 'theyre comin for your jobs' its not getting fact checked and the government dont want to come clean and say they just arent funding anything with this cash grab fire sale they are currently on.

It's just weird that immigration has become a red line for many on the left. To be left wing now seems to mean supporting immigration in almost circumstance at almost any cost.

personally i thought the day that Corbyn was interviewed on the BBC about leadership challenges and called it 'fake news' echoing Trump FFS was a new low for labour in a series of many recent lows.

pity he didn't stand on the platform with Cameron and say that to the electorate in general instead of addressing meetings of loyal supporters. He needed to get his hands dirty. Too late now totally agree Rugby!

Thank you everyone, it's very nice to hear!

Full disclosure I was a child migrant so it's personal to me. Like millions of people my parents are from different countries so there's no one place, ethnically, to go back to!

But also it's my line in the sand because it's facts not opinion. I vote for people whose opinions I don't completely agree with but not for someone who lies about facts, especially when those lies scapegoat human beings who've done nothing wrong.

And on immigration, Corbyn managed to spend the day of his relaunch contradicting himself on it.

Exactly.

He flip flops more often than the wind changes.

I don't much like Dan Hodges, but he wrote something in the wake of the last election defeat which really resonated with me: www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11592486/Ed-Miliband-was-an-all-right-leader.-Thats-exactly-why-he-was-destined-to-lose.html

In essence, I think we're doing the same thing again with Corbyn. It doesn't matter if we like our guy and think he's doing ok; for the electorate, it's a straight choice. And the other guys are doing better.

Whirl - yes yes yes to your last para.

We have our leader, people......I know we are all fed up of spin but perhaps, Whirl, we will have to find a name for you that is more stable and less cuddly?

Corbin's useless, but I think he merely speeded up Labour's decline. Even if Labour gets a better leader, its mandate and focus seem unclear. It has traditionally managed to appeal to three groups:

a) traditional working class Labour voters esp in north ("sorta" pro strong state spending, but also nervous about "scroungers" and quick to believe that others are ripping off the system. Suspicious of elites and the rich. Very skeptical on immigration and Islam. Social views quite conservative in some aspects)
b) metropolitan voters in big cities and university towns (pro strong state spending, pro immigration, pro liberal social values on gay rights, feminism, environment etc.)
c) ethnic minority groups all over the country (often conservative social views on gay rights and feminism type stuff. Mostly pro immigration and often defensive of Islam. In favor of stronger state spending, at least for certain things)

Three different groups--very different priorities, beliefs, worries, fears. How is Labour supposed to appeal to all three simultaneously? Very hard. I know the Lib Dems are in a weak position still, but at least they have a clear mandate (Group b type voters, basically).

I can't see UKIP taking the Labour vote yet though--my goodness, that party is an unprofessional outfit if I ever saw one.

Perhaps in the long run, a Front National type party will take the traditional Labour regions, but not just yet.

I think Labour will cling on in its traditional heartland for another decade or two, but by a smaller and smaller margin as more voters just give up in despair and stop voting, and a few drift to the LDs, Tories and possibly UKIP.

I can see the left having in the future to be more of a coalition style group than a one party. It's how they get there that is the problem and the damage done in the meantime.

I can't see UKIP taking the Labour vote yet though

I can in certain areas. Stoke for example was a high leave voting area. The Labour candidate is anti Brexit.

It is that sort of thinking that Labour aren't doing.

Where I live has always been Labour, however I can see it swinging to lib dems in the next GE, with boundary changes.

Let's clarify. So what we will do is get a good personable centrist leader, adopt likeable positions, hoodwink enough of the confused to get a small majority, play it cool for a while - and then spring our real platform on them say in year two?

Well it's a better plan than anything JC or his supporters have come up with so far.

I assume by "the confused" you mean people like me - floating voters - equally hated by all political parties.

Whirl I see lots of thoughtful and genuine posters on mumsnet but you are a pretty class act. You would have my vote

mary really interesting breakdown there of labour core supporters.

I can a

I can see ukip taking Stoke though too piglet

Considering the landscape of Scottish politics, Labour is fucked with or without Corbyn. Its highly unlikely that Labour will win back the majority of Scottish voters who have left in droves to join the SNP so it doesnt matter who is in charge of Labour, without the majority of Scotlands 60 odd seats, Labour will probably never get into power unless by some miracle it was able to convert a shit load of Tory/UKIP voters in England.

i fear the only way another party will make serious in-roads against the SNP is when Scotland is independent and a total economic basket case. I hate Corbyn, he remains the best news the tories have had in years. And if Scotland goes, we'll have the tories in RUK and the SNP in Scotland as effective one party states.