To be ashamed of the Labour Party leadership

[20nil]

Long term member, did not support Corbyn, but even I am surprised by quite how bad he's been.

Where is the opposition? I get that Brexit is difficult, but where is Labour on the collapse of the NHS, the explosion of homelessness, the decimation of local council funding and the ticking bomb that is school funding?

Why is it that we now look to the Lords, the Cof E and petitions to be the opposition?

Shocking state of affairs.

Trump's poll ratings were never as low as JC's. We know they can be wrong, but never this wrong. Not even a majority of Labour voters claim they support him now.

Plus, polls tend to over-estimate a Labour vote. Actual results would probably be a lot worse than polls suggest.

And seriously, yes I think we do need to find a personable leader and adopt more centrist positions. Because much as i hate it, these days the leader needs to be able to tell a story and carry people with them. Preferably in 160 characters.

Given the choice between ideologically pure opposition, and centrist left in power, undoing some of the damage and maybe even some good - no bloody contest!

This is why Labour needs to change, though - the idea that we 'hoodwink' people and then reveal our true colour is toxic electorally as well as unethical.

Far left doesn't win elections. Labour can't afford to stand on the sidelines criticising. We need them in power before it's too late. I'm not hankering for a return to Blair but better centrist left than Tory, and anyone who says the same hasn't picked up s paper this last five years.

they're the same.

I think we are in for a long, hard fight. The people have hardened their hearts. It is very difficult in times like these to fight dog-whistle politics. Labour has always been about showing that there is a better way.

I would venture to predict, if that is even possible in a time of volatility like this, that Labour will not win the next general election - no matter who is leader.

But! In volatile times things can happen. At this point, almost anything is possible. Under either Corbyn, or someone else

I agree. But I think showing there's a better way has to be done using the same techniques as the people with the dog whistles.

Short, clear messages. Leaders who can connect in emotional terms. Talking about immigration in terms which don't just dismiss people as racists and bigots.

Our side didn't do that last year. And now we have Trump and Brexit.

We need to get better at this. Waiting for people to cone to their senses is patronising at best, and won't work.

It is very difficult in times like these to fight dog-whistle politics

Let's not pretend Labour doesn't use the same tactics.

Trump had a huge advantage he was up against a very unpopular candidate even among loyal democrats

May isn't unpopular. She is proving to be a good leader of her party

No. But we've been shit at it. We need to do it better because the moral high ground is on the back benches.

I had to google quinoa that's how rough I am.

However I know a loser when I see one and sorry JC is looking like one on a daily basis.

He's an agitator and a dissident not a leader.

all the people knocking JC are clueless

Just the same patronising blinkered stupid attitude that lost Gordon Brown the election, allowed the disasterous Ed into leader, allowed the tories to win and Brexit to happen.

Stop patronising and telling voters they are stupid and follow the right wing press and fucking listen

JC is unelectable in today's Britain he really is

But I think showing there's a better way has to be done using the same techniques as the people with the dog whistles.

This is our burden. Let me put it this way, how did you personally come to support Labour? Perhaps it was because your parents supported Labour. But perhaps it was because you looked at this confusing world and said, "There has to be a better way, and I will learn and apply rational thought in examining the state of things" and you came to the conclusion that the Tory way was not only morally suspect, but founded on dubious principles.

The great advantage the right holds is that you don't have to really think too hard - you can, and some do - but pretty much "God says so" or "England first" will do. "Women make babies and are therefore natural nurturers" is easy, and looks pretty good, but try and explain social construct in simple terms.

Listen, I like "Bankers have destroyed the world", but can't seem to get traction.

Another problem, and it leads me to dark depressed places - the messages of the right speak very well to self interest. It is a fierce opponent.

oh I see so we haven't challenged ourselves enough

I have moved on from student poIitics that all Tories voters are selfish and all labour voters or rather far left labour supporters are morally superior, kinder and more intelligent

Please, I did not say we are smarter, and in fact in my first sentence, second paragraph, I specifically state that there are those on the right who are serious thinkers - just that the messages of the right lend themselves to simplicity.

I think one of the things Blair did very well, was not just say 'we must help these very poor/vulnerable people' but also 'you are being disadvantaged by this system too, this is how I'm going to help you' and then he followed through with tax credits etc.

At the moment it is the Right that are relentlessly giving out that style of message but with a scapegoat solution. You're all being disadvantaged and I'm going to fix it by getting rid of all those nasty foreigners that put pressure on jobs/the nhs etc. And people at large find that believable.

What Labour needs to be doing very loudly and clearly is defending it's reputation as supporting immigration (because if they don't they're saying the right is correct and the left caused disadvantage which doesn't help it's reputation) and also offeing your own very clear simple explanation of how you will help everyone. Wherever they live.

This is particularly difficult because years ago Labour decided to go down the 'yes austerity is necessary' path and hasn't bothered to fight to defend successful projects it started during the new labour years making them seem unnecessary (austerity was not the only option - America has done extremely well guided on a different path by Obama) and now Labour has to convince the public that there is a different way, hope AND money available.

Personally I would be pushing job creation as my main tactic at the moment. Make the North the centre of Ecoenergy jobs and engineering.

Goodness me Make, follow kinder gentler politics on Twitter to see how low some JC supporters are sinking.

There is plenty of nastiness on the left - STW, the SWP - and plenty of committed people trying to serve the public who disagree with you politically.

The very basis of right wing economic policy is Smith's assertion that markets correct themselves - the invisible hand. The left's ideas of a planned economy are much more complex.

Not to get in an argument about which is better - the free market therefore requires nothing. It takes care of itself. Planned economies require a huge effort.

What whirlwind said.

make, I grew up in a Labour home and am also, clearly, more comfortable with leftist principles.

At the moment, I'm also ranting at everyone who cares to listen that we need to teach critical thinking in schools - not what to think, but HOW to think and evaluate a thousand sources of information.

If we started tomorrow, it would take time. We don't have time. So we need to find better messages, positive ones.

'bankers ruined everything' might be true, but it's useless. What is there to vote for? 'no citizens left behind' might be better. Something about our several thousand years of absorbing different cultures, and how it's strengthened us. Anything other than what we're doing now!

That the great advantage of the right is that you don't really have to think to hard

whilst labour stands for a more equal society and members and voters relate I do not believe the stance on immigration is as shared. It is the huge elephant in the room that is only voiced in the security of a polling booth and why the polls are so wrong.

No, it's not. That's why they need to talk about immigration. But not just go along with this falacy that immigration as a whole is a negative factor for societies. Because factually speaking, it isn't.

But there are finer details, and not addressing them leaves people with false impressions.

. It is the huge elephant in the room

Yes.

Can I say, it's so refreshing to have a conversation about Corbyn and Labour with people I don't nec agree with, in such a respectful atmosphere?

Lately the guardian comments section has just been soul-shrivellingly awful.

Back to the fray

Sorry but again please listen. Just try it. Labour backing mass immigration will push more voters to ukip because whether you believe it or not there are millions of people who are disturbed by how their local area had changed and changed rapidly.

Labour and the tories poo poo their feelings and concerns and that's how this mess of Brexit happened.

I am afraid that labour are going to have to listen and make their policies credible affordable and palatable to the electorate.

make I don't disagree with you but it's irrelevant unless labour ditches the unelectable leader and unpopular policies.