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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask you to help me argue with an anti-vaxxer on fb

854 replies

GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick · 11/02/2017 21:24

I know, I know. But it's Saturday night, DP is out and I am just home whilst our (fully vaccinated!) DD is asleep.

What do I say to someone who is convinced that we should all do our own research, that vaccines are only about big pharma making big bucks, and that the govt hushes up vaccine damage??

OP posts:
Devilishpyjamas · 17/02/2017 10:20

I think the 'good of society' argument would work better if steps were taken to identify those at higher risk from vaccination prior to administration. Vaccine damage isn't particularly good for society, let alone for the affected individual - it's an economic disaster if nothing else.

Recognising vaccine damage actually does sometimes happen would also be helpful.

MimiTheWonderGoat · 17/02/2017 10:33

of ßcourse that's not to say that all people have to vaccinate against everything

So who decides which vaccinations to choose?? And how exactly?

Cue shitty smug comment from Sick asking why I'm still here.....

MimiTheWonderGoat · 17/02/2017 10:37

wayfaring - thanks for your opinion, but it's bollocks, cheers. #notapersonalattack #commentonacomment

#rude

bumbleymummy · 17/02/2017 10:37

GoesDown, you're talking about pregnant women irt rubella and how we shouldn't expect pregnant women to ensure they're immune themselves - they should rely on children being vaccinated. Why don't you feel the same about CP and flu?

Original poster
GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick · 17/02/2017 10:46

No, bumbley. In response to COTE that's what I was talking about.

We haven't been offered CP, therefore I trust the experts that it's not seen as necessary in the same way. If I am offered it, I will consult the immunologist, paediatrician and dr that I spoke to before the other jabs.

I have the flu jab annually.

Mimi, that point is buried many pages back, but for an ace researcher like you, should be no problem Grin

OP posts:
Original poster
GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick · 17/02/2017 10:49

Devilish- 100% agree with that.

OP posts:
MimiTheWonderGoat · 17/02/2017 10:55

Mimi, that point is buried many pages back, but for an ace researcher like you, should be no problem

Why do you have this complex about my ability to do research? You spent the first half of the thread claiming laypeople can't do research and I gave you examples of easy research even YOU could do. Is that what upset you?!

bumbleymummy · 17/02/2017 10:57

GoesDown, it doesn't really matter who you were talking to. We can all read your comments.

CP and flu also pose a risk to pregnant women - they are offered the flu vaccine themselves. They are more than likely immune to CP because they had it in childhood. They will also more than likely have been vaccinated against rubella as a child. For some reason you think being vaccinated against the disease isn't good enough - you think she needs all children to be vaccinated as well but you don't apply the same logic to CP.

Original poster
GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick · 17/02/2017 11:15

I'm not upset, mimi. Words on a screen from an anonymous stranger are not upsetting and if you think they are - get out more.

But how many times??! I don't know anything about YOUR ability to do research, although your posts on here as the sole indicator ain't great! What I object to is you spreading the myth that everyone can and should do their own research by reading medical papers online because it's easy. Posts by other posters above explain why this is irresponsible and put it very well. Then you started trying to be hilarious and talking about your kid doing its homework online for some reason Hmm

Bumbley - not sure you can, based on your replies. Cote said specifically that everyone should get tested for rubella before getting pregnant. Because we live in an ideal world where everyone has that opportunity! I found her attitude on that point to be both smug and selfish.

If a dr told me I or my child should have the CP vaccination, then I would consult the actual experts. And if I found them conflicting or confusing, I would find someone else! I might do reading to ask questions, but fundamentally I am not qualified to answer them myself - and not arrogant enough to kid myself that this doesn't matter!

OP posts:
Devilishpyjamas · 17/02/2017 11:18

So goes - if you took your child to a doctor for a serious condition - something that was affecting their daily life greatly - and the doctor said they didn't know and coudln't suggest anything - what would you do?

Shrug your shoulders, come home, put your feet up and watch a bit of TV?

MimiTheWonderGoat · 17/02/2017 11:22

everyone can and should do their own research by reading medical papers online because it's easy

No, actually I never did. I said that's what I did, and I said YOU did research by asking your gp and medical friends....
I have never once said anyone has to read medical papers, be it online or anywhere else!
So, stop inventing shit that you think people said and churn it out to make them look stupid. You're just making yourself look stupid and rude.

Devilishpyjamas · 17/02/2017 11:29

I said it's easy to access papers online now vs ten years ago - because it is. Even when I had access to journals via a university link I often had to ask friends in other institutions to access them for me. Now many more journals are open access and if you don't get itchy about it you can always use Sci-Hub. These days it's easier to track down a journal article online than it is to access an article in The Times.

Also lots of researchers it labs blog now so if there's an area that interests you it's not hard to stay in the loop even when housebound.

MimiTheWonderGoat · 17/02/2017 11:29

Then you started trying to be hilarious and talking about your kid doing its homework online for some reason

Ah...I see..Did that make you feel a bit stupid? Haha!

bumbleymummy · 17/02/2017 11:32

'Not sure I can based on my replies' what?

Yes, I know what cote said.

We don't tend to check if our childhood vaccines have lasted through to adulthood. We tend to just assume that they have. You don't seem to have much faith in the rubella vaccine lasting through until adulthood. Are you suggesting that there might be a flaw in the vaccine schedule if it means adult women can't rely on being immune to rubella when they were vaccinated against it as a child?

MimiTheWonderGoat · 17/02/2017 11:40

The odd thing about the OP is that she's completely trying to rubbish anything I say because I don't have a vaccine damaged child! No thankfully I don't.. I have one 100% vaccinated child and one with hellish allergies. We've made the decision not to vaccinate her because there is no research into whether or not she's at greater risk of vaccine damage than a typical child, and I also have severe allergies and did have a severe reaction to a vaccination as a child.

Just repeating this for anyone skipping the whole thread and just seeing the OP childishly insulting me for no apparent reason....on and on...

Original poster
GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick · 17/02/2017 12:39

Did that make you feel a bit stupid? Haha!

er, no. no it did not. it belittled the topic nicely though. but hey, you want to talk about hypocrisy and childish insults going on and on, you go right ahead. no need for me to rubbish anything you say. it's already rubbish.

bumbley - no, I am not "suggesting a flaw in the vaccine schedule". that's your self-appointed role, that and trying to put words in people's mouths. why do you assume that everyone had the chance to be inoculated against rubella as a child? or to put some words in your mouth: are you suggesting that we shouldn't care about people from less advantaged backgrounds or parts of the world?

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 17/02/2017 12:51

I haven't assumed everyone has been vaccinated - that's why I used 'more than likely' :)

The fact that people may not have been vaccinated is even more reason why you shouldn't be relying on other people's immunity to protect you.

Devilishpyjamas · 17/02/2017 12:54

So what would you do in mimi's situation sick?

Family history of allergies and vaccination reactions. Child with allergies. Would you really just decide you were too stupid to bother trying to find out anymore?

Original poster
GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick · 17/02/2017 12:57

right. and not everyone can be vaccinated, and not everyone should be vaccinated. which makes it even more important to take the correct advice. this much has always been common ground, throughout the thread.

the thing we differ on is how we get that advice and trust it is correct, because it affects more than just us. someone who thinks they know more than doctors, and that "mere" doctors and nurses all know nothing, and that you can find out more on the internet than you can from an actual expert is going to be talking bollocks in nearly every case. however, it is clear from this thread that some advocates of doing their own research lack the self awareness to appreciate when they are talking bollocks!

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Original poster
GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick · 17/02/2017 13:06

yes that's precisely what I'm saying, devilish.............!

of course it isn't, so please don't be facetious. in her case, i'd be speaking to several experts.

I would not consider myself to be one of them. and I'd be extremely grateful for everyone who could vaccinate, so that my unvaccinated child was far less likely to catch anything.

OP posts:
PandasRock · 17/02/2017 13:10

So since you would do some research, Sick, why do you object so very much to anyone else doing research?

Is it really the method of research you object to (online vs face to face)? Because that seems to have been one of your major points throughout this thread.

What is it that makes your face to face research better than online research using medical papers, or email exchanges between consultants/researchers/drug manufacturers/other experts?

MimiTheWonderGoat · 17/02/2017 13:20

i'd be speaking to several experts.

Huh? I told you I spoke to several experts and you said you (and the general public) are incapable of getting those contacts...and I told you I looked them up online and you ridiculed me for it...again!

Original poster
GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick · 17/02/2017 13:22

huh? I don't object to anyone doing research. it's the self-appointed experts here, or the actual experts thinking everyone is like them, that I think are dangerous, panda.

that can't be a serious question, surely. see morphene's post above about being in a bubble.

OP posts:
Original poster
GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick · 17/02/2017 13:28

so if every single parent or person who is looking at vaccination takes your advice mimi, and emails those people or rings them, they are going to have time to respond to them all, in-depth? really?

most people would have to pay for that sort of attention. which is what I did, tbf.

OP posts:
MimiTheWonderGoat · 17/02/2017 13:28

Not everyone has a friend who happens to be an immunologist. For the rest of us there's such a thing as a telephone, and the majority of contact numbers are published online. If you can't get hold of an "expert" directly they tend to have secretaries who are generally kind enough to pass on your message and the "expert" will get back to you by email, phone or via secretary.
If you strongly object to using the internet then use the bloody phone book!