To ask you to help me argue with an anti-vaxxer on fb

[GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick]

I know, I know. But it's Saturday night, DP is out and I am just home whilst our (fully vaccinated!) DD is asleep.

What do I say to someone who is convinced that we should all do our own research, that vaccines are only about big pharma making big bucks, and that the govt hushes up vaccine damage??

I will happily admit to not having a science degree. That does not mean I am not capable of reading scientific papers, or any other academic literature.

My uncle (FWIW) left school with absolutely no formal qualifications whatsoever. He ended up with a job which required him to have degree level scientific knowledge (a job he did well, and at the top of his field, for many years).

Gaining a degree is only one way to acquire knowledge. A good route, sure, but not the only way.

I had never participated in any sailing whatsoever before I signed up for a global ocean race. I learned the skills I needed as I went along - varied skills, which the dozen or so of us on the boat had to manage between us, for weeks at a time, completely out of touch with the rest of the world (e.g. crossing the southern ocean). Not for the faint hearted, sure, but perfectly possible.

People are not just the sum of their academic achievements. And you never know what you can do until you truly need to.

The science papers you hold so high (vaccination related) are a small part of what I have had to learn in order to help my child. I now know a hell of a lot more about the digestive system, general brain and cognitive functions, the immune system and auto-immune conditions, general skeletal and muscular structure, the educationsystem (and the legal hoops through which I had to jump to secure a decent education for dd1), even communication (despite my degrees in this area, dd1's has taught me/made me research and learn so much more about micro communication and communicative intent than I knew before - degrees are not the be all and end all!), Christ the list is endless.

I could have not bothered with the research for any of the above. I could have taken the cheery platitudes at face value, when I was fighting to raise concerns about dd1's when she was just 7 months old.

I could have accepted the paed's remarks when she was 22 months old, which amounted to "accept she won't change, be thankful she's quiet and not harming herself"

I could have accepted my doctors comments that gut disorders frequently occur with autism, and there's nothing to be done (upon querying the obvious pain, and the blood/undigested food in her stools)

I could have accepted her (highly experienced, very well respected) teachers report when she was 4, which was that dd1's would never learn anything in school (this was a specialised special needs school, with high staff levels)

Again, the list is endless - I've cited several examples which all needed further research at a reasonably high level across several different fields, and I've only glossed over the first 4 years of dd1's life!

I could have accepted it all, the opinions of these highly regarded professionals, and not done my own research.

I didn't.

Dd1 has her ASD dx.

Dd1's gut health is now good.

She has learned a staggering amount in school.

If, 12 years ago, as I was handed my baby, I had been to,d what I would have to do, I would have said I couldn't do it.

But I did.

Because I had to, and because no one else was going to do it for me, or (far more importantly) for dd1.

So only people with vaccine damaged children should look into vaccines and are capable of reading and understanding information from non-conspiracy theory/anti-vaxx sites? Come on. Why assume that the majority of people looking into these things are unable to think critically?

Sidetracking a moment, Pandas, but what did the trick for your daughter's gut health in the end?

Morphene - that is exactly what I was asking and why I was so surprised that someone with as much knowledge as devilish would say it's so easy. Surely the more you know, the more you know how difficult it is for lay people to understand.

Most people will do a bit of googling and frighten or confuse themselves. Esp as the rabid anti vax crew are so much shoutier than the voices of reason.

Actually my point morphene was that very few people don't vaccinate and those that do tend to read a lot beforehand. The people I know with unvaccinated elder children had reason to think their children were vulnerable (so researched) or were uneasy about vaccinations for whatever reason (& on the whole that group has partially vaccinated - do made a decision about which vaccinations they think are necessary or not).

Vaccination rates are extremely high now. Most people just do it. Those who don't ime research it. iirc literature looking at vaccine refusers has found the more education someone receives the more likely they are to refuse a vaccination. Give me 5 mins and I'all check.

I know a 96 year old who has always been a vaccination refuser. She left school early but was a nurse for years.

It was a long road, and a mix of things, Lancelottie.

I trialled gf/cf when she was 2 (against mainstream advice ). It had near-instant effects (better response, more 'with it' in general), but didn't do amazing things for her bowel health.

She had a lot of supplements (standard-ish ones, like vit B rather than outlandish), tailored to her needs (more non-mainstream advice ) following a few non-invasive investigations. She was on these for a few years (still gf/cf).

It then just took time. Her gut health was finally at a point I would call reasonably healthy by the time she was 9 (digesting properly, poo no longer rancid), so a good 7 years after we first started supporting.

She is no longer gf/cf, but does take an enzyme supplement enabling her to eat a typical diet (which she manages well on, unless she has too many things which are difficult for her to tolerate - i.e., on holiday, lots of ice cream/change in diet generally etc).

"Most people you know have an older affected child. So (unsurprisingly) your bubble contains a lot of people like you. That doesn't mean the majority of anti-vaxxers are the same as you... So don't make blanket assumptions that every antivaxxers has any reasonable reason for being so."

We don't have to have lived a terrible car crash to wear seat belts. And we don't have to have a child damaged by vaccines to be cautious about them and delay/refuse as we see fit.

American studies seem to be recording vaccine refusers as better educated/higher income. Which I was a bit surprised about (is vaccination free in the states. I'm sure my friend talked about paying for them)

U.K. study I looked at a bit hard to work out. It says higher income/better educated refused mmr (although that refusal rate is dropping now) but my guess is that they paid for singles - so not really refusers. Being from a chaotic household also often leads to refusal - but another paper said most refusals are a purposeful decision so I guess the chaotic group must be small.

There's loads of literature on reasons for refusal in various different countries (some of it such as belonging to Waldorf family under the no shit Sherlock heading). If someone has the inclination I'm sure they could plough through and find out the subtleties - but better educated = more likely to refuse was mentioned in a few papers.

So I don't think we can just assume people are refusing because they're not capable of reading a scientific publication.

(Not that I ever did).

Better educated can equal the kind of posts we've seen here from people saying they are absolutely capable of doing the reading because they once got a masters in something or because it's not difficult to find online therefore anyone can look it up and interpret it correctly

But it's not that difficult. Many people can understand a bar chart. The paper I talked about that I read this morning was a review of symptoms. Most people understand what a 'tremor' is.

I was reading scientific papers as an a level student (not many - they weren't that easy to get hold of - but to prepare for interviews I read some).

President Trump (fart?) President Putin (poo?)
THIS IS PROOF.

I did link to a paper earlier where you had to understand what a percentage was. I suspect people have worked out they can get the main points from the discussion section if they don't like numbers.

I have not said that at all. I mentioned my graduate studies because they were relevant to what I was saying.

I also have a science background and am more than capable to read and understand the scientific studies I read - a fact I would assume Devilish knows, as we have been arguing on such MN threads for about a decade now.

I have never come across anyone who believes herself to be too ignorant to not only give informed consent but even to understand a scientific study, but since you insist, I agree with you.

Don't assume everyone else is like you, though.

Yep I can confirm cote is quite capable of reading and interpreting a scientific paper. I suspect she is stronger in maths than me as well.

Yeah.... coming from someone who assumes she knows which diseases can be spread around on the basis that she chose the ones that "don't frighten" her, not one word of that means anything in real life. You keep kidding yourself about how bright you are, it obviously makes you happy :)

The measured well-thought out responses from the people who are in favour of "doing the research" is in such stark contrast to the vast majority of posters saying that people who question vaccines should just follow the experts, definitely not "rabid" and "shoutier"

"someone who assumes she knows which diseases can be spread around on the basis that she chose the ones that "don't frighten" her"

What on Earth are you blabbing about again?

I truly hope that you are much younger than you claim to be.

Sure, phraseology like "What on Earth are you blabbing about" is REALLY measured and well thought-out, Atenco.

It is measured and thought out, actually. And a fraction of what I could have said after OP's numerous and foul-mouthed personal attacks (deleted downthread), even after I asked her to stay on the subject, play the ball and not the man.

Oh so it was someone else who posted that she couldn't be "frightened" by childhood diseases that she had had because she was fine, which of course that means everyone else will be.

And it must be someone else who posted that it was entirely up to other people to make sure they were immune from rubella before getting pregnant - because of course everyone is totally able to do that, all the time.

Anonymous comments made purely about your anonymous comments does not equal a personal attack, however much you don't like hearing someone tell you anonymously how those anonymous comments have come across, "buttercup".

My long post vanished! Basically said thanks to Panda though.

GoesDown, do you think it's up to other people to vaccinate against CP and flu to protect pregnant women as well?

They were personal attacks and they were deleted.

bumbley - it's not just pregnant women, is it? that was just the group dismissed by cote. you've seen posts from someone on here who is immunosuppressed. I've had people in my very close family with cancer and other conditions that are affected by people's decisions not to vaccinate.

of course that's not to say that all people have to vaccinate against everything. that's never been the argument here. but if you want to live in society, yes you have obligations and it should very much be a part of your decision making process. which is another strand to the research and yet another reason why claims that it's all easy and anyone can read it all are just feeble.

wayfaring - thanks for your opinion, but it's bollocks, cheers. #notapersonalattack #commentonacomment