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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask you to help me argue with an anti-vaxxer on fb

854 replies

GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick · 11/02/2017 21:24

I know, I know. But it's Saturday night, DP is out and I am just home whilst our (fully vaccinated!) DD is asleep.

What do I say to someone who is convinced that we should all do our own research, that vaccines are only about big pharma making big bucks, and that the govt hushes up vaccine damage??

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bumbleymummy · 15/02/2017 22:39

Ewe, I take it that you think 'anti vaxxers' believe that autism is only ever caused by vaccines?

Devilishpyjamas · 15/02/2017 22:46

No such thing as autism. It's autisms.

Would like to know more about what they looked for though as ds1 (very severely autistic) MRI was normal. Need to read the study - if it was an MRI done for research purposes it won't have used people like ds1 (would require a GA).

EweAreHere · 15/02/2017 22:51

No, I don't, bumbley. But there are plenty of stories about people who seem convinced that vaccines caused their children's autism. I just thought it was an interesting read when it popped up tonight.

EweAreHere · 15/02/2017 22:54

Wayfaring, I did the same when the swine flu vaccine first came out some years back. I am not anti-vaccine; my children have had all their childhood vaccinations, etc. But... the brand new swine flu vaccine ... that one just had me shaking my head: too new, too untested, too rushed to market ... so I said no to it. And currently being fought over are the 100s of narcolepsy cases it appears to have been linked to.

Morphene · 15/02/2017 22:56

can we agree that conspiracy theorist are a bunch of twats, and that there is some overlap between conspiracy theorists and anti-vaxxers, but that overlap is far from complete, and many anti-vaxxers are antivaxxers for very good specific reasons that they have researched very carefully?

Morphene · 15/02/2017 22:59

devil I think part of the point was that they were scanning children before they became symptomatic, and then asking for other clinical data once they were symptomatic, so they could well have included children like your DS in the study.

Not disputing at all that there are many different causes for different autisms though, that is certainly true.

bumbleymummy · 15/02/2017 23:08

Ewe, I know some people believe their child's autism may have been triggered by a vaccine.

HyacinthsBucket · 15/02/2017 23:20

All of my DDs were vaccinated, but my middle one (19) caught whooping cough last year and was desperately unwell with it for 6 weeks. She had a cough initially that everyone else at work had, then got a terrific fever that we couldn't get down and the worst cough I've ever heard in my life. We went away on holiday the 2nd week she had it, and she spent the whole time in bed or sat on the sofa crying she felt so unwell. We saw a GP whilst away who was very dismissive of a virus, but when we saw our own GP on return, he said she had cracked ribs from so much coughing which told him straight away it was pertussis and it took well over 3 weeks of antibiotics/steroids/inhalers before she felt even remotely well again. Blood tests confirmed his diagnosis and it was reported to the local public health. She was off work 6 weeks in total, and around 4 others where she works were also diagnosed with it. Now she's a healthy young adult with a good immune system and our GP said that she would have been much much poorlier without the vaccination in her system. To think what it could do to someone who is immune compromised or very frail ie a newborn is unthinkable. I get really mad at anti vaxxers. By all means make that choice, but they shouldn't be able to attend school/nursery etc as it is so bloody irresponsible.

Devilishpyjamas · 16/02/2017 00:03

Morphene - but I am wondering how they did the scans? Surely they didn't use GA just for research.

My son's was normal anyway - so either they looked st something specific that his didn't check out or he isn't in the odd MRI group.

The BBC reporting of that was awful - will read the original paper when I have time.

Devilishpyjamas · 16/02/2017 00:05

Hyacinths - I take it you read the stuff earlier about the rise in pertussis cases not being driven by non-vaccination. (That's not controversial).

Devilishpyjamas · 16/02/2017 00:08

Ewe what would you say to someone who's child ended up in ICU after the MMR? Coincidence?

The MRI research tells you nothing about MMR & autism & the comment on the BBC article suggests the reporter doesn't even realise autism is not one condition.

Devilishpyjamas · 16/02/2017 00:12

Actually wouldn't include people like my son as he's a simplex case and the high risk cases that turned out to have autism must have been multiplex.

Devilishpyjamas · 16/02/2017 00:13

Simplex and multiplex autism known to be different in all sorts of ways.

Atenco · 16/02/2017 04:27

can we agree that conspiracy theorist are a bunch of twats

No.

I hate the term conspiracy theorist, as it makes out that anyone who suspects any type of conspiracy is a nutter when in fact conspiracies exist. For example 9/11 was a conspiracy by someone, even if it was the people that the US government tells us.

Original poster
GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick · 16/02/2017 07:47

Morphene - I would absolutely agree with that, except I would say "some" are anti vax for good reason, not "many", and that those people who cannot be vaccinated for good reason need the protection from others more than anyone. The stats on damage from measles are frightening; no more children should risk catching it than is absolutely necessary. And the risk of people drawing ill-informed conclusions from their own "research" is significant.

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RhiWrites · 16/02/2017 08:02

I wondered why this thread was still going on and it turns out its full of anti vaxxers. How terrifying.

Doesn't "do your own research" mean that some people will gravitate towards facts and science and others will find their way to "alternative facts" and conspiracy theories?

I think what's scary is how plausible the anti-V position can sound. The accusations of blindly following experts make you feel you should do your "own research". But that's nonsense really.

No one does their own research on astronomy or atoms. But most reasonable people believe that the earth goes round the sun and that electrons firm the shell of an atom.

We're not blindly following. We're standing on the shoulders of giants. I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't see it that way.

lottieandmia · 16/02/2017 08:07
Hmm
witsender · 16/02/2017 08:15

This reply has been deleted

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Original poster
GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick · 16/02/2017 08:19

Great thanks for posting, witsender, that was so worthwhile :)

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Devilishpyjamas · 16/02/2017 08:19

Rhi writes - and when you your child's doctor says they don't know in answer to your questions? Do you just give up or go off and look up the latest research?

Some of you seem to find it really difficult to imagine having a child that the medical profession doesn't understand.

Every physiological test run on my comes back normal (except for expected medication related effects). Some tests he can't have (due to his disability) - but physically to date his test result suggest he is 100% fine. Until he went on meds (which can be spotted via blood tests as they affect prolactin levels) you could not have picked out which blood tests belonged to him and which to his very independent brothers. Nor could you distinguish between MRI's. His disability is very severe - severe enough to require 24 hour 2:1 and for us to be pursuing CHC rather than social care funding. Yet regular medical tests/genetics/MRI all normal. He didn't start off disabled - he got that way. He'a also seems to be getting more disabled as he's getting older (although that may be drug side effects I guess or may be not that well controlled epilepsy).

Are you seriously saying you would just shrug your shoulders, say 'oh well if the doctors don't know there can't possibly be any relevant information out there' and just hope the same thing didn't happen with your younger kids. Or just stand and watch him get more & more disabled?

Or would you maybe start reading research papers & talking to researchers?

StarUtopia · 16/02/2017 09:01

Hyaccinth You are aware that vaccines doesn't last forever??!

Most adults are unvaccinated. Guarantee. If you took a random bunch of adults off the street, majority would not be vaccinated - vaccines taken as a child 15 odd years ago not providing protection.

My son had whooping cough - less than 8 months after his vaccine.

Are you up to date with vaccines? Have you been to the doctors in the last 5 years to have everything re-injected???

No. Then you're a hypocrite. Pure and simple. So maybe we should start focusing on re-vaccinating all adults before blaming a small handful of infants who, for a whole myriad of reasons, may not have chosen to taken that particular vaccine.

Sorry about your daughter though. Sounds awful. (my son was pretty bad too)

Guavaf1sh · 16/02/2017 09:05

I think now that there are people who think the Earth is flat (I've met one) and many believe in ghosts and astrology, talking to the dead, witchcraft and homeopathy it will never be possible to convince people over vaccines. We are just naturally irrational.

lottieandmia · 16/02/2017 09:26

Why don't you read the thread Guava

lottieandmia · 16/02/2017 09:27

Absolutely the problem of vaccines wearing out is one that needs to be dealt with.

Original poster
GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick · 16/02/2017 09:42

guava - the stuff some of them spout is truly shocking. the comments on the original fb thread are now over 200 and about 180 of them are by the same few who are swapping tips and "stats". one of them is lamenting that 10 children died post MMR whilst no children died of measles in one year and wondering when people will "wake up" to "what's going on".

now however they died that's fucking awful, the death of any child is just beyond fucking awful, but surely ZERO kids dying of measles is the stand-out to take from that?! apparently not, as they are high fiving each other about homeopathy right now.

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