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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask you to help me argue with an anti-vaxxer on fb

854 replies

GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick · 11/02/2017 21:24

I know, I know. But it's Saturday night, DP is out and I am just home whilst our (fully vaccinated!) DD is asleep.

What do I say to someone who is convinced that we should all do our own research, that vaccines are only about big pharma making big bucks, and that the govt hushes up vaccine damage??

OP posts:
MimiTheWonderGoat · 14/02/2017 20:57

Are you actually a troll?

BorrowedHeart · 14/02/2017 20:59

I am medically trained lol, I had to do tests and practices exactly how they would for nurses, seeing as I also would do these things for tstudent nurses to watch and learn from me. I think highly of myself because you are telling me I'm not an nurse etc and therefore i don't know anything when clearly I do.

BorrowedHeart · 14/02/2017 20:59

I even do a yearly cpr course at the training centre opposite the hospital, I'm trained by those who train hospital staff.

BorrowedHeart · 14/02/2017 21:00

They aren't apparent, they are fact.

Original poster
GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick · 14/02/2017 21:12

You're certainly keen to convince everyone.

But you still have zero in the way of actual qualifications, yes? Or no?

OP posts:
Devilishpyjamas · 14/02/2017 21:13

Borrowed - you sound like the sort of person I'd like to have around in a crisis!

Really goes - when you have a disabled child you become an expert in all sorts. You have to. You don't just stand around waiting to be the passive recipient of good wishes bestowed on you by others......

Original poster
GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick · 14/02/2017 21:20

No, I understand that, devilish. But knowing what you do, and therefore having that understanding, would you actually advise someone else with zero knowledge to "do their own research"?

Because I think that would be very dangerous advice for most people. And yet it's the line that gets trotted out again and again. Especially by the ones who think they know more than they do because they have a degree in something unconnected or similar!

OP posts:
BorrowedHeart · 14/02/2017 21:28

I'll admit I've tried hard to convince you, because I've worked hard to get to a point where I can honestly say I am an expert on my child, I will not be told that I'm not. I have her liaisons and cardiologist always telling me that I am the expert in my child, I need to be her voice, I know everything about all of her problems yet only specific doctors know some things and not others. I have to be her voice so yes I am keen to convince, but I've worked hard to get this far and it's given me a career choice I'd love to explore, maybe then I'll be an expert in your eyes. Devilish it has made me very aware, I get nervous now in case something goes wrong, and since I know what to do I couldn't stand back and do nothing. I hope for many reasons I never witness an arrest.

Devilishpyjamas · 14/02/2017 21:28

I do advise people to do their own research and make their own decisions yes. Not sure who else would be making the decisions. That's the whole concept of informed consent.

CoteDAzur · 14/02/2017 21:33

I would love to live in that world where doctors and nurses know everything, diagnose and treat everything perfectly, and there is no need for anyone to be informed and on top of their own healthcare.

That would be a world where a close relative is NOT crippled since her foot operation 30 years ago. She trusted the doctors and didn't think to inform herself about the possible reasons why her foot stil hurt inside the cast months later. If she had, she would have raised the possibility with the doctor, insisted on an antibiotic, and would still have cartilage left in her ankle.

That would also be a world where another close relative's baby has nothing wrong with him, just like they were told over and over by the GP and two separate paediatricians. It would be great if he did NOT turn out to have a particularly severe form of muscular dystrophy, which means he probably has moderate to severe learning disabilities, will probably end up in a wheelchair, and will not survive his parents.

Unfortunately, we don't live in that world. We live in the one where doctors are fallible and they don't always pay 100% attention to you. So you have to question, research, and be well-informed about your own health.

MimiTheWonderGoat · 14/02/2017 21:38

It's not about knowing more because they have a degree.... You don't buy a house without reading and signing the documents the solicitor sends...lease, mortgage agreement, etc....but you don't have to have a degree in law or training as a solicitor to read and understand them.
Why do you need a degree in any subject to read and understand the results of a study? They are usually summarised in plain English on the first page!

Devilishpyjamas · 14/02/2017 21:43

I hope you never witness one either borrowedheart

Last time I saw one the people who knew what they were doing mucked in together

MimiTheWonderGoat · 14/02/2017 21:43

Here's a study. See the results and conclusion? Difficult to understand?
www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g4219

MimiTheWonderGoat · 14/02/2017 21:43

Here's a study. See the results and conclusion? Difficult to understand?
www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g4219

BorrowedHeart · 14/02/2017 21:56

Devilish I seen my first arrest in person outside a hospital, being brought in out of the ambulance with the person performing cpr on top of him, I completely lost it and started crying. It was awful, something I don't want to see again.

Original poster
GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick · 14/02/2017 22:26

Then that's rather disappointing, devilish, sorry. If anyone can just run off and do the research and understand it, why are there experts? Why does anyone bother training in it?

Mimi's point about the law is just plain bizarre. If you think that all legal documents are easy to understand for yourself then you haven't seen many or if you have, you haven't understood them. And for any unclear areas that could give rise to a dispute you would also have to look at statute and case law and then text books to see how experts predict the court could apply those in your case, taking into account the circumstances in circumstances when circumstances are relevant...THAT'S why you use a lawyer, so you don't have to do any of that.

So to bang the drum again, if by research you mean consulting trusted experts, fine. If you mean trusting your own ability to pull out only current and relevant data online and make correct interpretations - and you recommend that to other parents - then you're being irresponsible, however clever you think you are.

OP posts:
Devilishpyjamas · 14/02/2017 22:38

As someone mentioned earlier nearly everyone I know who has chosen not to vaccinate has vaccinated elder children, I.e. They have made a different decision for younger siblings after an older child (or in some cases two older children) have reacted badly. Yes I'd advise them to do their own research into the type of reaction their child had and sometimes that includes a name of someone to consult if I know of someone useful. Generally not the GP. They don't know enough.

TBH I don't see anyone else's vaccination decisions as any of my business. It's certainly not my job to police what sort of research they have done.

If it all goes tits up (whichever decision they make) then they'll be on their own. There won't be people flooding around to help (ask me how I know) - so they get to choose. None of my business.

If you busybody around everyone's decisions I hope you're there to step in and lend a hand (for years) if it all goes wrong. Or is that bit none of your business?

MimiTheWonderGoat · 14/02/2017 22:52

Oh jeez, cupofcoldsick.....if you consult your experts and you get your answers then bloody good for you! What the rest of us do when we don't get our answers is more research.

Enough already. Good night!

Original poster
GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick · 14/02/2017 22:55

But that's just not the same thing as the original point, devilish. Those parents would be coming from a very different position to the big pharma wants your wallet and your soil conspiracy theorists. If you would advise seeing a specialist by doing research then we are saying the same thing. If you are saying google it and trust your own analysis then we're not.

Generally speaking, herd immunity IS everyone's business. If you can't vaccinate your kids because of an adverse reaction then it's better for you if others do, to reduce the chances of them catching something like measles when they can't be protected. Ditto if you have vulnerable relatives or friends. When my grandmothers had cancer, or my mother had her stroke, i would have wanted to know if there was a risk of exposing them to something, for example. If you see that as "busybodying" then so be it!

OP posts:
Original poster
GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick · 14/02/2017 22:55

*soul, not soil. Nobody thinks they are gardeners.

OP posts:
ollieplimsoles · 14/02/2017 23:03

around these parts

Where are you from? Hmm

CoteDAzur · 14/02/2017 23:06

Take a wild guess.

Or RTFT.

Devilishpyjamas · 14/02/2017 23:11

Sick - I don't believe anyone has to vaccinate their children to protect mine. Every vaccination carries a risk (which is an individual risk and different for each and every one of us) - it's not up to me to tell them what to do with their children. I would hope they would make the decision that is right for their child, not mine.

Do you have ANY idea what it is like to have your child become so disabled they need 24 hour 2:1 care (which you have to fight for again and again - because believe me SS & health do not like paying for 2:1 care). However minuscule the risk it's not my place to tell other people to take that risk. Their child - they get to decide how to play it.

lottieandmia · 14/02/2017 23:26

'If you busybody around everyone's decisions I hope you're there to step in and lend a hand (for years) if it all goes wrong. Or is that bit none of your business?'

Hear, hear

Original poster
GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick · 14/02/2017 23:34

Well, I disagree - not with your experience of course, but with the conclusion if you are saying that you would recommend people that you know to go off and google. that is wrong in my view. If they ask and you recommend seeking specialist advice then sure, I would agree with that. My issue is with people who think they can understand it all themselves when they have zero knowledge or experience. They are not just playing fast and loose with their own health, but with their kids' health and potentially lots of other people.

Stories like this one are heartbreaking. The more people who think they can cherry pick because they know more than the drs, the greater the risks of this happening:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/11482704/Parents-of-baby-who-died-from-whooping-cough-urge-anti-vaccination-parents-to-look-at-my-son.html

OP posts: