Does it really do any harm??

[fruitandbarley]

Holidays in school time. I'm 40, my parents took me out of school for a week once a year to go on holiday.
I've done ok for myself, don't believe it's affected me in any way.
So AIBU to ask if it's really such a big deal. ( So long as it's not a silly amount of time).
Disclaimer:- I've had wine, any spelling mistakes are due to that and not a week camping in Cornwall when I was 8).

goldopals I said Year 2 or 3 and out of Year 7 or 8, but maybe I really mean Year 3 or 4 and out of Year 8 or 9, since it will not happen for a while, if at all (two kids).

It's pretty pathetic that most entitled parents think they have some kind of God given right to withdraw their child to save a couple of hundred quid

You say pathetic, I say wonderful. And not god given, but me given, even better!
It's a few thousand quid, in my case. Does that make a difference?

grannytomine
I don't know if its just me but there are one or two teachers on here that sound like they are in the wrong job. They are coming across as hating their jobs and maybe the kids.

Nope just you :)

Love the job, kids, and most parents. I just don't want any unnecessary work added to what I do.

it's okay to take kids out of school as long as YOU'RE willing to do the work needed to make sure they they catch up what they've missed

BoneyBackJefferson

"It must be possible for teachers to have some sort of plan for what they do which can be accessed by parents electronically.

But this still puts the responsibility on teachers to make up what the holidaying child has missed, and if sent to the office it makes work for them as well."

So what happens when kids are ill and miss class for those reasons? Do the parents find out what was taught?

Is there truly no record anywhere of what is one a certain day, already in existence?

"and in the end it still comes down to whether the child is made to complete the work." What comes down to that? If a parent knows we did XYZ while your child was off they could take a stab at catching their child up themselves. At one time this may have been very hard but with the internet now it may be easier.

MaisyPops "A week or so in year 8 probably is the end of the world in my opinion." How so? Genuine question. What if the child is already many stages below peers?

LumpsMum "Italian It's really rather comforting that you say your child is doing well in school." Two kids, two totally different situations. Same school for primary.

SmileEachDay "Please don't dismiss what teachers do as "depressing"."

The phrase used was something like every hour is planned. So I guess I should qualify my comment with how planned is planned. Some degree of planning Totally necessary, micro managed not so much. My dd's primary almost spoke in terms of every minute being vital. Which makes a mockery of the amount of time kids are made to re-do things like entering a classroom because one child is noisy.

It really depends how planned things are. If the planning allows for some freedoms and sense of discovery that is great.

I can more than imagine that what some teachers do is brilliant and what some teachers do is depressing. The fact you want to engage about teaching when not 'on duty' means you are probably one who makes lessons fun etc. But my own experience of some of both my and dd's schooling is just not that (sadly).

Trifle I can definitely see the situation you describe with changes, could be very tough. Can I ask, you do not need to answer, "Except that they are my monkeys when it comes to exam time, and then it's back to 'Why is my child failing English?' Er, because he has 70% attendance?" Was the child with 70% attendance due to holidays or truanting or illness, or a combination?

Eolion " exactly. It's one thing working your arse off and dealing with long hours and challenging kids when you actually believe in what you're doing and have the support of your senior leaders. It's quite another thing driving yourself into the ground for the sake of the government-generated merry-go-round of data and skewed statistics where children are just a number on a spreadsheet. It just doesn't have to be like this. " it sounds dreadful. Can I ask what, if anything, teaching union are doing about this?

Don't shut up! We like the fighting spirit!

RachaelCatWhisperer "Take your kids on holiday by all means. Do it. Show them life outside of the classroom. Show them achievement not measured in targets and grades. Just don't blame me if the child is behind or expect me to catch them up in my own time."

Please remember that those of us who would like to support the rights of parents to take kids out in term time are not necessarily the ones who are doing this, and if we are we may well not be the ones labelled 'taking the piss', we may also not be the ones complaining or being unsupprotive of teachers.

I've been very supportive of the teachers at my kids school, or at least I have tried to be.My son has had three excellent teachers in three years.

Italiangreyhound

I get the feeling that you believe that the subjects missed are all written or theory.

In a ten day holiday I could go through two different programs + support + work, (depending on group, Key stage, timetabling and ability).

The programs are free, but parents won't download them and not everything missed can be covered in a handout.

As for what happens if a child misses school due to illness (something that their parents have no control over), I do 1-2-1 as best I can in a class with 30 children and try and then caught up. but is this really relevant when a child is intentionally pulled from classes.

grannytomine when we visited one high school my eye was drawn to the fact the teacher taught in shirt sleeves (and trousers if course!) While all pupils Sat in blazers sweltering in the hot class room. It was just one of the Manu things that put me off tfat school!

The obsession with uniform is utterly bizarre!

Trifle I really do not think you or your colleagues should have to catch pupils up. and I am not sure these policies are at all about benefits to students. My cynical side says it is a shameless money spinner.

I am not sure how we got where we are with education. Where is the head of steam agitating for change?

italian - "some degree of planning totally necessary, micromanaged not so much" - are you an educator italian? Do you have any idea how much planning it takes to pull off a fluid, non micromanaged lesson with 30 children all with differing needs? You can't just leave them to it..,

BoneyBackJefferson the relevance for children who are off sick is that I am still wondering where this 'potential list of what my child is learning' resides. And how I could access it.

For the record I think parents should be trusted to remove their kids for things that may be truely beneficial to them. I do not think it is teachers job to catch those children up.

Holidays are beneficial. Of course what is taught at school is beneficial too.

"I get the feeling that you believe that the subjects missed are all written or theory."

Do you mean that the way you teach them explores them? "...different programs + support + work, (depending on group, Key stage, timetabling and ability)" Do you mean a parent so 't be able to do as good a job as a teacher?

I probably would not argue with that. I'd expect you to be better at teaching than me. I'd expect learning alongside peers to be more fun then bring caught up by mum or dad at home, or a teacher at school.

But I am genuinely not sure how much pupils retain of all they learn. And I genuinely don't know how much current education prepares children. I am sure teachers try and do a good job. I don't wa t teachers under more pressure!

Smile I have been a language teacher and I am aware to some degree how much hard work goes into lessons.

I also know that children learn in many ways and part of how their brains develop is through free play, not just play base learning etc.

I am fearful the way education is delivered in England and other parts of the world does not make the best use of the knowledge we have about learning.

I believe the Rose report suggested that British kids would be better served by a more continental approach. Yet we do not have that.

I know my son despite being Olli just a member of our family by adoption, and only just 4 was encouraged to be on school fukll time and I was 'threatened' with "he will not catch up". My don joined late and part time. Going full time the term before he turned 5 (on professional advice).

I don't have any problem with planning but I worry that some schools (I am drawing on own experience not your school, of course) have an approach that does not allow enough freedoms for kids. So when I hear "every hour is planned" I do worry!

In reality (my experience is) naughty behaviour ties up mases if time, issues affect learning and for some school is a very difficult.time. I guess I fear school is not chills centred enough. it is driven by a desire for the wrong kind of results. But I am not saying this personal to you.

No, it doesn't. You can take a 4 year old out of school with no repercussions whatsoever Oh how amazing so a 5 year old missing a week is going to have their education ruined but a 4 year old will just catch up when they get back. I wonder what happens on your fifth birthday to cause such a strange phenomenon? Or do you mean legally nothing happens? I thought it was concern about the child's education, I see it is just bean counting then.

Oh to go back to a nice sensible system where a Head could say, "Yes that won't be a problem, not a week that will have a big impact and your attendance is 100%" Or "Well if you want a week off next July I will be expecting excellent attendance for the rest of the year so I won't be signing this permission slip till a bit nearer the time." and of course adding, "When you get back I expect you to make sure you copy up any notes you've missed and make sure you catch up."

Italiangreyhound, yes it does seem strange particularly when you are talking about 17 and 18 year olds who could be married or in the army and yet they can't be trusted to decide if they are too hot or too cold.

grannytomine: I'm not counting any beans. I'm just telling you what the law says. That doesn't mean I have expressed an opinion on it.

Er, because he has 70% attendance?" Was the child with 70% attendance due to holidays or truanting or illness, or a combination?

His was a weird one. 70% attendance in Y11 by the end of the Autumn term, with a variety of illnesses and injuries but no evidence produced. There was also a family bereavement but in Y10. As his form tutor it was my job to contact home initially and the parents were fairly vague about what had gone on (I just know it wasn't a close relative). They did, however, quiz me about his progress as his English teacher and I have to say I was blunt: he needs to attend school if he is going to pass.

I actually believe it was already too late for him, unfortunately.

I agree with you to some extent italian - I'm in secondary so it's a little different to early years (where actually I'm hugely in favour of the model of not starting formal school until 7) - but to give you an idea of what I mean by "every hour being planned". This was a lesson today:

Broad objective: creative writing.

Started activity: think of synonyms for a given list of words - challenge a partner to put them in a sentence.

Activity 1: write the most interesting sentence you can about swap your work and improve your partner's sentence. This x 4 pictures.

Activity 2: as a group of 4, read the provided piece of writing - decide what you like/don't like - how would you improve, what would you give it as a title? (I worked with the 4 children who struggle most with literacy for this task)

Activity 3
Plan your own piece of writing using one of the prompts on the board. Planning starters on board, planning frame for lower ability, I worked with the higher ability to push them with their plans for vocabulary.

Next lessons will be writing it
Then I'll mark it
Then they will "polish" it by redrafting including the feedback.

Sooo....actually lots of time to be creative, but loads of planning for me because I have to scaffold the activities for the weaker students.

*starter

I don't know if its just me but there are one or two teachers on here that sound like they are in the wrong job. They are coming across as hating their jobs and maybe the kids

That may be me you were referring to, as I had a proper rant upthread. But I decided on a career as a teacher when I was 12, never wavered (until recently in my 40s). Love teaching kids. Love my subject. Hate what's become of the education system. I am fortunate that I was able to go part time and then quit and just do supply and private tuition. Not all teachers can afford to. It's not necessarily that many teachers are in the wrong job - it's that the job is no longer the same job.

Smile thank you.

I am afraid both me (dyslexic) and my dd (also dyslexic) have been very affected by school (negatively).

But I do know some teachers are brilliant.

Italiangreyhound

By "programs" I mean software, scratch, Alice, flowol, logicator, solidworks, pro-desktop, solidedge, 360, inventor, 2D design.

I'm sorry to hear that, italian - the lasting impact of school is not always good.

BoneyBackJefferson thanks, I will look into these.

Smile I am happy, confident and for the most part fulfilled. But I have a lingering book-phobia (of sorts) and a degree in English Literature, so go figure!

Italian The reason I asked is as the last week or so of the Christmas term is wind down pretty much universally, as is the week before Summer. The further away you are heading the more likely it is that extended holiday will be less of a problem-a 30hr flight is acknowledged as being a 'bigger deal' than a 5hr one iyswim and so a longer stay would be less frowned upon.

Trifle 70% doesn't surprise me sadly and truth be told holidays aren't responsible for that yet somehow the parents of these children keep slipping under the radar whilst we berate others publicly.

anklebitersmum That makes sense.

It's about a 10 hour flight, so the whole journey (as we are not near an airport) would be about 14 hours with travel time and waiting time and the other end is not necessary near the airport so about 15 hours total at least!

I'm exhausted just thinking about it!

The percentages I think are one thing but to be honest I know people who have been off sick for real medical reasons and there is no dispute if they are unwell or not, they clearly were. One who had at least one injury sustained at school, that meant they were off sick, so for very legitimate reasons and still got a letter from the school about being off! I just feel sometimes common sense goes out the window.

I teach drama as my first subject, and some lessons of music. The academy I work in has a curriculum enrichment obligation which is led by the arts. Since September 2016, the following examples were all because of absences caused by term time holidays:
● twin girls in year 7. Parents signed a contract to do one extra hour of music a week after school on a Monday as part of able and talented programme. Missed two sessions which impacted the entire 14 week lesson plan and meant I had to add two extra after-school sessions so we would be ready for the concert.
● 1 year 9 student missed 10 drama lessons. He was on a fast track GCSE programme which he has had to be removed from because I cannot make up that time. He would have finished his GCSE a year early, giving him the opportunity to do an extra course. That is no longer available to him.
● 1 year 10 student has had TWO holidays (both long weekends) has missed two double Friday lessons and one double Monday lesson. She was in a group devising a piece of theatre for moderation
Her group decided to drop her because they couldn't rehearse properly without her. This caused them disruption, meant I had to pull in some after-school seasions and meant that she had to do a solo piece, which she really wasn't strong enough to do and which has reflects in her grade.
● our school show has been cancelled due to 5 different students being on holidays at various times, missing lunch time and after school rehearsals.
● in year 13 we can set the date ourselves for performance moderation as long as it comes before the exam. Due to 2 of the 6 students in the class missing 4 weeks between them, the ONLY week we can do it is the week after half term. Which is the same week as my year 11 performance. Which means that not only will I now be at school until 8pm for 3 nights in one week, if I want my year 13s to pass, I have to go into school to rehearse with them during half term.

Take your kids out of school by all means. All of the above is the nature of my job (especially in the arts) and this is not a complaint, but a description. Take them out, do whatever you want to do. But please don't say that it doesn't cause any harm or it doesn't have much impact.
It does.

But please don't say that it doesn't cause any harm or it doesn't have much impact.It does

No, it CAN, not it DOES. It did for your examples, but there are plenty of other instances where it would not cause those kind of difficulties.
Of course it is possible for it to be disruptive and harmful, but not for all.

I would argue there is always a level of disruption. Even if slight.
I am merely asking for acknowledgement that the reason this is an idea is because it actually is an issue.
Calm down, Narky.