Does it really do any harm??

[fruitandbarley]

Holidays in school time. I'm 40, my parents took me out of school for a week once a year to go on holiday.
I've done ok for myself, don't believe it's affected me in any way.
So AIBU to ask if it's really such a big deal. ( So long as it's not a silly amount of time).
Disclaimer:- I've had wine, any spelling mistakes are due to that and not a week camping in Cornwall when I was 8).

Yogimummy123: I wouldn't feel any need to do it. There. No problem for me. You obviously would like to know what your child missed but if I am too busy to communicate with you on that issue, that is your own problem if you chose to remove your child from school for a holiday. That is your call and the consequences are not my responsibility.

I would take my DC out in primary but not secondary.

My daughter is in yr1. We are taking her out of school for 3 days before May half term just after her 6th birthday to go on holiday for a week because it saved an awful lot of money we don't intend to make a habit of it and probably wouldn't when she is much older. I do not expect her to miss much, I expect her form teacher to toe the party line but not really be bothered (she is so far pleased with her progress and i don't imagine she will need "catching up"**). I expect the head to send me a ticking off letter but not report it. While I don't necessarily agree with them I think the strict rules are there to stop people taking the utter piss because if they weren't, the workload for teachers catching up 30 different kids at 30 or more different times of the year would overwhelm people doing what is already a ridiculously pressured (and often thankless) job.
if I am really lucky it will be when they are planning on doing the phonics test but that's another thread entirely.
while I don't think we are entitled to a holiday abroad we are going with her grandparents who live far away. This is the only opportunity she will get to spend an extended period of time with them in a fun and pressure free environment, possibly for the foreseeable. In terms of development, when we went last year (within holiday time, they randomly had a 2 week half term that enabled us to do it) she learnt to swim out of her depth so I think there are things that are as important to a childs development as the stuff she learns in school.
as for teachers taking time off, her teacher is currently off sick, when she is sick no homework is set. But it is school policy to set it as I was told when I said that I didnt see the point in homework for 6 year olds (her teacher said she unofficially agreed with me). So if it's so important why hasn't someone else set it? What is going to make her lag behind the most. Missing three days of lessons or having 3 weeks with no homework? The answer is NEITHER!
What i think this longwinded post is saying is that if everyone was reasonable about it it might not be a problem, but some people given an inch will take a mile and they have basically ruined it for everyone else.

We bump into many home educated children, and Americam homeschoolers on our 'school term time' holidays. So there are some school-age children around to play with.

American*

I missed a month of school at the end of year 12, I didn't notice what I had missed when I got back and still got straight A's at A-level.

My DD has so far missed 2 terms of school because the only thing more stupid than forcing kids to learn to read when they are 4/5 yo, when they should be out exploring the world, is training them to pass government phonics tests.

Interestingly (abysmally), the local council haven't deigned to notice our child isn't in school let alone discover if we have a plan to educate her.

I would have a lot of sympathy for the family that says they need to take the holiday in term time because they can't afford it, that is doing a week camping in Devon.

However I've never come across someone who says that who is even staying in this country, so they can afford a holiday, just not the one they choose to go on.

I teach in a primary school and agree with many previous posters that a week taken at the end of term is not going to do a lot of harm. That time is usually finishing off work and preparing things to be passed up to the next teacher, etc.
However, I would never advise anyone to take their child on holiday at the start of a term. Routines and expectations are established, new books given out and friendships are formed. Even a child returning to the same class can find that friendships have moved on without them and they can struggle to find their place.

50+ years ago, if a child missed things because yhey'd gone on holiday, while it's not the child's fault and they have little choice, the responsibility to catch up was clearly and unequivocally placed on the child. Teachers generally didn't do extra hours to help a child catch up, the child was just expected to put the work in themselves and the parents expected to help if needed.

So, parents did think fairly carefully about when to go on holiday, as they were the ones who were expected to do more to make up for school time lost. That has changed so the onus is now on the teacher. Not right, really.

With standardised tests (in Y1, Y2 and obviously Y6) I think even in primary level missing any extended period is of time is detrimental. I'm a teacher, and a child in my class has had 3 weeks off recently and has missed so much. There is no way we can catch up without causing issue for the other 30 children in the class.

PonderingButterfly I really do hope you get your trip to your homeland. I cannot see how any head teacher could deny you the chance to show your children. your homeland.

Can you find some family event to centre it around? A distant relatives wedding?

What the heck are your kids going to learm in school on those days that they could not learn another time?

50+ years ago, if a child missed things because yhey'd gone on holiday, while it's not the child's fault and they have little choice, the responsibility to catch up was clearly and unequivocally placed on the child. Teachers generally didn't do extra hours to help a child catch up, the child was just expected to put the work in themselves and the parents expected to help if needed

This is exactly how it works where I am. We neither ask for nor are offered any help from the teacher (other than a simple verbal "you might want to go over x &y"). If anything is missed, we catch up. We've been doing this for 10 years and its never been an issue, or impeded their progress in anyway.

I preferred it when HTs had the power of discretion as it opened up more dialogue about taking children out, whereas now, in anticipation of a blanket "no" there's no dialogue at all. Last year I had an A* GCSE student miss the fieldwork that his Controlled Assessment revolved around. I'd have preferred it if there'd been an opportunity to identify weeks like that that were particularly important, and weeks where less disruption would be incurred. Fortunately he was able and motivated enough, and had a decent knowledge of the areas studied to mitigate for the missed trip.

It never was ideal. I remember my form tutor confiding in me that it was awkward when my best friend applied for a week to take a two week break over a half term. She had a twin that the staff were happy to grant permission for, but she found it much harder keeping up. In her own right, they would have refused, but they allowed her because of her twin. (We had a lot of conversations that would be frowned upon these days )

There is too much bureaucracy and time on assessment on schools and that erodes learning time for content. Absence can be a pain for teachers, but on a decent holiday, a lot more can be learned through practical experience.

I missed a few weeks here and there at primary school. I remember the holidays clearly! Being a bright child in a more relaxed educational world, I probably did benefit more from the holidays than the week in school. The skiing had limited non-term time opportunities, and those two holidays were partly proffessional networking for my dad in a field where coordinating time off was very difficult.

DebbieDownersgiveitarest good post.

BoomBoomsCousin so the being off school = doing worse, how about kids who hate school so much they truant or say they are sick and have time off etc and it is uncertain if they are really ill or not? I don't know for sure but I am guessing those kids would do badly even if they were present at school.

Booboo66 are you honestly unsure about taking your kids back to your homeland and you are worried about what they will miss? Find out what they do in the couple of weeks and see if you think that is more vital than seeing family a d home land, and see if you think you could catch them up on these topics.

"However, in reality a trip to Butlins or even a trip to an all-inclusive in the South of France isn't going to do much for most children" don't you think being in France might benefit a student of French?

Smile "we only have them for a few hours every day, 39 weeks of the year. Every hour of that time is planned. Which is why missing any of them is a problem."

Every hour is planned wow to me that is so depressing, I think it is going to be hard for kids to think for themselves.

Suchalovelyday your trip sounds a amazing. Yes your children missed a lot at school! Poor kids!

MillyDLA I genuinely do not understand the obsession with attendance. Of course if the kids are sitting in a field, smoking Consulate cigarettes with their friend (as I did) then school needs to know and address it. Address why some kids want to do that. I did it because I was shy, dyslexic and hated school.

Of course I should not have been in a field! But there is more to truancy than meets the eye. A parent taking a child on a family holiday is not the same as me sitting in a field smoking.

BoneyBackJefferson obviously screaming and shouting at teachers is not on. For any reason at all.

It must be possible for teachers to have some sort of plan for what they do which can be accessed by parents electronically. I work with adult students and we make information available to all students electronically. I am not saying parents need a blow by blow account of all classes but if teachers had an electronic record of topics etc that parents could access on line, would that be so hard? They already do plans etc. It us not teachers job to catch kids up BUT schools school IMHO be required to make what is taught available to parents. As more and more schools have web sites and maybe even virtual learning environments, it should not be difficult. It could actually be put on lone by the 'office'.

On line

Truth be told it's all about the cash as far as the councils are concerned. Fining parents irrespective of their child's educational circumstances is a lazy option which doesn't actually help the more vulnerable students at all.

While HTs are being forced to report parents wishing to take their child on holiday other children are missing far longer periods of time on a sporadic basis which they are essentially powerless to stop.

Makes me

"So unbelievably entitled" Triffle do you really think parents are not entitled to know what their kids are being taught?

I would not be able to know for sure what my dd was learning even when she was present at primary school because she hated school, hated talking about it, and her writing was illegible!

Now at high school dd does come home and talk about school. This is because (it seems) her needs are being better addressed.

But my point is you can't always rely on kids to convey what they are doing at school anyway.

So why is there no easily accessible record of the main things?

I don't think it is entitled to want to know what your child's class is being taught even when your child is not there! Is it a secret?

LumpsMum excellent points. Yes, it is also exhausting to feel the education system has no real interest in your child! However, my son who is not dyslexic seems to be doing really well in school.

As well as the angst about holidays now, though, at high school there is a total obsession with uniform!

Italiangreyhound: They're not being taught. They're on holiday. So no, they're entitled to sod all.

cherish123 To be clear good teachers always get my full support. I don't think that the teachers are to blame at all for this fining nonsense.

I don't take the biters out of school during term time, and I too, get a little bit annoyed at the 'DisneyWorld is cheaper during term time' routine. One off trips to see extended family or similar should, in my opinion, be the exception to a ridiculously 'Nanny state' rule that, as I say, has little or no effect on helping those who are actually at risk educationally.

Italian Yes - another thing to add to the list of things I find slightly panic inducing!
Never had to wear uniform for anything back at home.
Nice not to worry about what to wear, but my brother in law got detention for a half untucked shirt more than once!
If all the time and energy expended on policing/micromanaging certain aspects of school life was used to actually teach, results would be similar but everyone would be more relaxed.
The one thing I take away from this read is - as long as I feel my DS is not struggling, I am going to play it all by ear

Italian - (sorry to be slow responding, had to disappear for a while) as I said, the data shows correlation, not causation. Of course solid scientific data on causation can be hard to get when people are involved as most robust methodology would be hugely unethical! So it may be what we're stuck with this unless we gather potentially really intrusive data on people.

So your scenario is perfectly plausible, and my personal inclination is that that is the case. But the government case - that academic scores go down to a large extent simply because a child is not present in class when curriculum is covered - is also plausible.

LumpsMum "If all the time and energy expended on policing/micromanaging certain aspects of school life was used to actually teach, results would be similar but everyone would be more relaxed."

It's like I am looking in a mirror. YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY