NightWanderer "If my toddler who's a girl hits my eldest who's a boy and he hits her back hard, they both get a bollocking. I hate all this don't hit girls stuff. it should be don't hit, full stop."
I really hope the bollocking you give out is proportionate to the hitting. Otherwise you are teaching your elder boy it is fine to behave like this towards a very young sibling, that he cannot escape being hit by a toddler and is OK to retaliate. What a very unpleasant lesson to learn. Don't you think that as men are a lot stronger than women it might be a good idea to bring up your son with the idea not to hit women, as well as not to hit anyone in general?
BellaMoon "... i am a natural "devils advocate" type, comes
with the job." I can imagine it is useful in your line of work.
"i would encourage you to review your comment just now to me which mentions something along the lines of giving people room for excuses. you are honest (which is appreciated) in saying you have "taken a side" so you only see this from your perceived victims stance. " I always take the under dog's side, male or female, it's just the underdog is usually female (especially on Mumsnet!). But if the aggressor here were female and the other were male, I'd be supporting the male.
"what if ... the big bloke didn't retaliate and the post was therefore "how dare my colleague report me for making contact with him with a newspaper and being sarcastic in front of colleagues, it was only banter".
She was not being sarcastic in front of collegaues, they were both using sarcasm and as far as I know we do not know if others could hear.
So because the big bloke "...colleague retaliated ...that then gives the OP room for excuses" Only if you think sarcasm in this situation and tapping someone with a newspaper is an offense. I don't. Not in relation to banter. If one person doesn't like the banter they should stop interacting, move away. etc. But he started it with sarcasm. He can dish it out but he can't take it!
"IE he retaliated, which then automatically minimises/removes her actions?" I am not sure how it is possible to minimise tapping someone with a newspaper, it really is a very minimal thing!
"i can't help but always explore alternative view points." It is fine to do that but it is the conclusion one ends up with that is the key thing. Suppose this man had learning difficulties and could not follow the banter and felt the newspaper swatting was an attach, then I would be able much more easily to see his side in this but would then think colleagues should know this and not get into these situations.
You mentioned before you apologised and seemed to accept some blame for your colleague slapping you when you came into the kitchen. Unless you totally crept up on her and you were attempting to scare her (which I doubt, as you seem very nice) then I do not see you are at all to blame. What you seem to see as a strength, in accepting some blame, I see as a weakness.
For a very long time those who are the victims of violence have been blamed for what happens to them. For women particularly but not exclusively who dress in a certain way, take a certain route home, go somewhere, do something, don't go somewhere, don't do something.
I find it all very much victim blaming and highly offensive.
When someone does violence to another then there needs to be a clear indication that this is wrong, proportionately wrong. To compare a slap (the OP's use of word wallop) with a tap with a newspaper is ludicrous to me, so I can''t get beyond that.
Because whatever this man felt he acted violently to the OP and she did not act violently to him. This is based on the dictionary definitions and common acceptance of the meanings of words. I do know we only have one side of the story, but that is always the way with mumsnet!
"I completely disagree - climbing down off the fence now - that a woman shouldn't need to apologise for her actions if they have offended/intended to cause offence/ hurt someone emotionally or physically." If she had done that and he had not retaliated, fine she can apologise for that (do we think he was experiencing any of that, I doubt it) BUT once a situation becomes violent, no the victim of that violence does not need to apologise for words they have used etc.
An apology is only relevant if the person feels sorry, once someone has acted violently towards you then the perpetrators feelings of having hurt feelings really are immaterial. Defending perpetrators of violence is not really excusable to me. I've never acted violently to anyone. the only exception I could see to this is where bullying is happening and a person lashes out because of genuine fear of violence or in a confrontation situation/home attack/street attack etc. Where this could be viewed as a form of pre-emptive self defense.
"Why does gender come in to the moral obligation to be a decent human" Whoever said it did. I said nothing about gender. I simply know most men are bigger and stronger than women by dent of their physical sex, and so generally women would be more scared of men and cowed by them.
Women will be well versed in putting up with situations where they feel uncomfortable and may even use banter to get out of situations that scare them (not here but other situations). If you are not aware of this you may not have been in such situations but many women are. So I expect many women go out of their way to make men feel good and happy and I cannot see any evidence that they do not.
There will always be exceptions, and I have made it clear I am on the side of the underdog so if the man were physically weaker and being bullied by a stronger women my sympathy would lie with him. I think I've made that clear.
" are men wired so that they are immune to feeling hurt/entitled to apologies? sorry, no!"
I've no idea how men are wired, I am not a man, I know my dh likes an apology when he feels I am in the wrong. Random men, I expect they are the same, right up to the point where they start acting violently, I am with them, after that sorry (I'm not sorry) but once you start slapping I would not give a toss for your hurt feelings.
"I'm in the wide awake club... caffeine to blame" I went to bed sooooo late last nigh. That's the trouble with some threads you get into them. You really can't imagine how the others feel the way they do! I am rarely on the fence. If I am on the fence I guess I don't post on the thread!
Have a great day, I must do some work now!