To wonder why it's OK - even considered a positive thing- to give girls names that are traditionally considered boy's names but....

[BertrandRussell]

.......not the other way round?

That's why I mean. Cut for boys. You just had to buy a huge one if you had boobs to accommodate, and have it taken up because it would be too big everywhere else.

Huge boobs? I was thinking more of primary school!

Not huge boobs. Just boobs. Which many primary school girls have.

Sorry mis-read your post

They do now. When I was at primary school (1960s/early 70s) hardly any girls had boobs. This goes with earlier onset of puberty.

Finding out your unborn child's sex from the scan was pretty common when I was first pregnant in 1991, so maybe ultrasound was improving apace from the late 80s. Also, once the genie is out of the bottle, you can't put it back in - i.e. once a few people were told that the radiographer could see the baby's sex it rapidly became an expectation that all parents would be told that at the scan, if they wanted it. And now it seems the ultrasound scan has become a photo opportunity for lots of people, and even in some cases a family day out, rather than a medical check-up that could end with very bad news.

Re names: it's noticeable that most of the obvious unisex names start life as boys' names.

Alex - Alexander/Alexei or Alexandra/Alexis
Sam - Samuel or Samantha
Georgie - George or Georgina/Georgette
Pat - Patrick or Patricia
Robin - Robert or Roberta/Robina
Chris - Christopher or Christine/Christina/Christa/Christabel
Nicky - Nicholas or Nicola/Nicole/Nicolette
Frankie - Francis/Frank or Frances/Francesca

There are gender neutral children's clothes for pre-pubescent children. My two year old wears lots of things that could be worn by boys or girls.

You have to resort to some of the much more obscure clothing brands to get gender neutral. Smafolk and places still have gender divisions, though they're better than most

"There are gender neutral children's clothes for pre-pubescent children. My two year old wears lots of things that could be worn by boys or girls"

Are you sure? What makes them gender neutral?

What I mean is, how do gender neutral clothes differ from boys's clothes?

Possibly I have raised some arsey feminists, because DD has said what the world needs is somewhere that makes and sells gender neutral children's clothes and toys.

My DDs wore a lot of boy's clothes, because I refused to put them in pink frilly stuff. Boys' clothes have in fact got more macho over time: the clothes for little boys c1950 were quite often quite 'girly': Mary Jane type shoes and shirts with rounded collars.

Don't you see the contradiction in your post? Lumela

Oh look at me putting all my children in gender neutral clothes,not all that stupid girly stuff.

Bertrand is correct - gender neutral means boys ' clothes.

Any one who sneers at "girly" clothes is perpetuating stereotypes and is just as bad as anyone who thinks boys should not wear pink or flowers.

Oh I see what you mean sort of. I was thinking white babygros and red t-shirts and tights of any colour except pink. Different to dresses or to t-shirts with trucks on.

He wears quite a lot of things I consider (if I think about it) as neutral but others think are girls' clothes. He used to have red dungarees with white spots - people always thought he was a girl in those. His wellies are rainbow and my mum thinks they're girly.

Oh and his first shoes were little blue Mary Jane style and people not only thought he was a girl but if I corrected them (only bothered if I knew I'd be seeing lots more of them) they'd say "oh" and then stare at the shoes.

Does gender neutral mean boy's though? What about a red t-shirt? Why is that for boys?

I'm not being disingenuous - I think maybe I'm not quite understanding.

I'm a bit mixed up. I thought you meant one of the tiny brands or shops who market themselves as selling gender neutral clothing.

Myriad is good for gender neutral toys. Helps if you like Waldorf Steiner too.

Is it possible to have a gender neutral dress/skirt, or are dresses and skirts always girls clothes?

There are kilts I suppose.

Oh and lots of African garments for men. If you mean just in England then dresses are definitely considered by most people as exclusively for women/ girls.

I don't think so, Assassinated. Splendid, I think some people's argument is that if a garment can be worn by a boy without comment then it must be boy's clothes. Therefore it can't be gender neutral. However, it is a circular argument, so I don't agree. Surely, noone can think a plain white babygro is anything other than gender neutral.

Slightly off on a tangent, but I've noticed a bit of a shift in both boys' and girls' naming trends recently.

At dd's nursery (1yo) lots of the girls seem to have stronger-sounding names than in recent years - there's been a move away from the Ella/Ellie/Evie/Ava names towards not only the masculine and surname-names, but also "stronger" girls' names like Harriet, Juliet, Imogen, Elizabeth.

Interestingly, at the same time lots of the younger boys seem to have softer-sounding, more "cutesy" names: Louie, Frankie, Charlie, Teddy - often as their given name. Part of the same trend maybe - trying to differentiate boys from the new wave of stronger girls' names?

I don't see that among my 2 year old's peers, both sexes have quite cutesy names. Maybe we're just behind the curve.

I guess I do mean in the UK, in our culture. The kilt is a bit of an anomaly. - it's a men's skirt, but people are normally very careful to call it a kilt and not a skirt!

This is why 'at dd's nursery' isn't a good data section example. Sorry, that sound srude
There hasn't actually been a move away from those names. Ella, for example, moved up several places in the charts in 2015 and entered the top 10 for the first time. Ava is also top 5 having moved up. Elizabeth has fallen and Imogen has been in the same chart position for three years, moving up nor down.

True Reuset. Although to be fair there are probably quite micro, localised effects.

Oh I see what you mean sort of. I was thinking white babygros and red t-shirts and tights of any colour except pink. Different to dresses or to t-shirts with trucks on

You, and I mean general you , not you personally; have to get away from the whole mindset of certain colours and patterns only being for one sex. Think Boy George in his hey day or Grayson Perry or the transvestite comedian Andrew O' Neill.

Clothes are suitable if they fit and the wearer likes them regardless of whether they have trucks or fairies on them.

I think Lumela and her daughters are completely missing the point.