Is the school taking the p!ss?

[nat73]

Long story but the primary school our kids go to is very nice and relaxed but their SATs results this year were dire. For some time we have been thinking that the 'extra curricular' activities outweigh the actual curricular activities. I know kids should be kids etc and we spend lots of time on weekends playing with playdough and in the garden, on bikes etc. So I do expect time at school to be used for 'learning' and better still learning to read and write.

Warm up to Xmas at our primary school included (for the whole school): Xmas concert, Xmas fair, Xmas party, Xmas lunch, trip to the pantomime and all day trip out.

In 2 weeks time there is another whole school trip. Year 6 go on an all week outward bound course (4 nights) during the week and I notice other schools do it over a weekend.

I went into the school before Xmas to express my concerns about the SATs results and that they are nothing learning stuff in enough depth. I was told there is so much to cover that in the time available there is not time to do everything in alot of detail.

Year 6 have 2 after school sessions per week to try to improve the SATs scores. Then I find out this week that for 12 weeks they are having someone from the local community to come in to talk about an aspect of popular culture for 30 mins per week.

Is this a wind up? If there is not enough time to cover the curriculum in detail why are they a) doing so many trips and Xmas stuff and b) spending 6 hours on popular culture. I dont mind this being an after school club or something but why have pupils stay after school to study for SATs and then spend time in the day pratting about?

My husband says I should complain to the governors but I feel like I have come to the end of the road on this. Is this normal? Are all primary schools pratting around this much?

Eolian: Me neither. But the comments calling her 'obsessed' and 'abnormal' because she wants her child to achieve a good standard of reading and writing seem unfairly biased towards the position I described. Education can't be all about creativity and enquiry - there are many fundamentals to grasp. A balance is needed.

The range of activities seems pretty normal. ..and particularly so if there are quite a few underprivileged kids there as those will be their only opportunities to access that kind of thing. Are the results bad every year and do they reflect the intake. As in is the progress ok but results poor or is the progress poor too.This round of sats were a lot harder so quite a few schools have had a shock. Have you had an opportunity to see your child's work...are they making progress in your opinion. I'm not a fan of the pressure put on children to perform for sats, but sometimes results can highlight problems that get addressed. It must always be about the children not the data but the data helps a little. So in summary I'd be more concerned if progress was poor across the boards and I felt my child wasn't making much progress. My sons school has terrible sats results and I know why and the reasons are fine.

With the upcoming cuts you may well find that in years to come the enrichment activities you mention become only a dream of what once was.
Enjoy it while you can, it sounds like a school with a good ethos to me

I would be concerned if the SATS results were poor compared to local and national levels. Whilst i'm not a lover of SATS per se, they are a measurement of how a child is progressing academically. I would be concerned that poor results would affect later academic achievements. A good school will produce reasonable SATS results and still have plenty of time for fun learning opportunities too

You're definitely over thinking this. SATs, as PPs have already said are to evaluate the teachers, and the school... not the individual child. Although they're "sold" to us parents as being for the latter - rather than the former, so that we will encourage our 10 and 11 year olds into doing their very best, and pressure, pressure, pressure, adding unnecessary stress to shoulders that are far too young for such things.

My DS (12) started Yr 7 in September. When he had his SATs results at the end of Yr 6, he was placed as average to low in everything except history. He's in all of the top groups in senior school and is doing brilliantly in all of his subjects. He does all that I will ever expect of him - his very best, and I am as proud of him now as I was when he had his SATs results.

Your children have plenty of years ahead of them during which they'll be under ridiculous amounts of pressure, and feel as though they're not measuring up to what- and/or whoever's opinion of them.

Let them be 10 and 11 year olds, enjoy their final year of primary school... and understand that the SATs aren't a reflection of (1) their ability to soak up information - including parental disappointment - like little sponges, (2) a judgement on how you parent them, and (3) their final level in life.

Education can't be all about creativity and enquiry (trifleorbust)

Yes it can.

This school sounds amazing.

Talk to the Governors.

Infact, go one better and become a parent governor, I am, and I think it would be an education for you to see how much pressure teachers are under to put young children under pressure.

You will learn how schools are faced with the dilemma between sucking every last scrap of enjoyment out of learning ( and teaching) and scoping audits from the council's School Intervention Manager if their stats fall. And then of course, there's Ofsted.

If you genuinely feel the school needs to be held to account by you, then put your money where your mouth is and sit in a cold school hall in the evenings and listen to all the priorities a school had to balance.

There was a huge drop in Y6 SATS last year so it is worth taking this into account. The 2016 children were the first ones to sit the new one and they had to cover a lot more in that one year than other years before them.

Our school dropped from over 90% to mid-70s, still above national average but on its own it looked like a disaster.

School trips and people coming in to talk about other things than the 3Rs is great. We do two residentials, one is 3 nights, the other 4 (Y5 Autumn, Y6 Summer) and it brings so much to the children. They do 2 trips a year, a lot is done before and after that in class like writing reviews, letters to the people doing the workshops, investigating beforehand what they will do/see.

Christmas - god, DD has ADD and December is a nightmare. Her usual routine is out for around 3 weeks but on the other hand they love it.

SATS results last year were dreadful for most Year 6's because they changed the way it was done just before the kids were doing it. Placing undue pressure on the children and schools.

We had a meeting about SATS at DD's school recently. She is in year 6 and they explained that the scores were lower last year because of the changes. However, they have been using that info from last year to teach this year and work towards them - they do maybe an hour or two a week focusing on SATS work. The rest of the time they are doing PE, usual curriculum stuff, art, trips, a full day doing a boot camp type thing with stuff from the local leisure centre, their topic (which is on the human organs) and music. In no way are the school pushing SATS on the kids, just preparing them as best they can with tons of fun stuff organised for them the week after.

I have told DD I am not bothered about her SATS results. As long as she tries her best and continues to work hard at school then I'm fine. I absolutely will not place any undue pressure on an 11 year old child. And nor should the schools.

No one ever got asked for year 6 SATS results at a job interview.

Ketchuponeverythingplease: Okay, yes it can, if you are happy with children leaving primary school functionally illiterate. Sure.

why have pupils stay after school to study for SATs and then spend time in the day pratting about?

I agree, why don't they cut out the unneccessary stuff and get on with teaching them. Why should a child have to stay after school to do the work that they should be doing at school?

SATS results are meaningless. My daughters year 6 primary class did outstandingly in their SATS. When she got to secondary school, the whole class was treading water for a year so that all the kids from other primary schools could catch up. She almost lost interest in school altogether as they had worked so hard for their SATS and she felt it was a waste of effort.

You do know not every school does sats because they are that un important? If your in the uk, comp schools dont even look at sats grades. If you want your kid in a better school for secondary then they do the 11+ and THAT is what you worry about because only a good grade on that will get you in to a grammar school. If you want your kids in a normal secondary then dont bother, if your kids primary was one of the many that dont even take sats you wouldnt even have this issue. They get tested throughout the whole of year seven for their writing skills, number skills etc and that is what matters, sats results arent even taken into account. Children go through ALOT in comp, i know i teach it, it is one looooong stress induced 5 years. 2 of them years will be the worst two years of your kids lives when they go to do their gcse. The pressure and stress is beyond ridiculous. Let your kids be kids and for what its worth, ive seen many a shit school in my time so that primary sounds excellent! Let them enjoy and like school before they go up to comp and it ruins their school life and bashes their view on school. When they get to comp then you start worrying about results and how well prepared they are for gcse.

I'm sorry OP But I've got to agree with other posters - I think this school sounds fine.

That's bonkers. If the SATS results were dire then the children aren't meeting the age-specific standards for literacy and numeracy. That does NOT indicate a good school to me unless there are extenuating circumstances such as a high proportion of children with English as a second language or SN. And even then I'd expect the children WITHOUT those issues to be achieving the expected standard.

OP, if this is a one-off blip or there's a good reason for the scores being low I'd keep an eye on it but leave it for now. If the school consistently under-achieves and OFSTED have remarked on it then I'd be looking for a new school. Yes, I know people say academics isn't everything, but it is a really important aspect of preparation for later life. Early years education is super-important as a foundation for secondary schools to build on.

Oh dont be so foolish, Trifleorbust. Do you honestly think that every education system which is creative enquiry based, produces illiterate kids? Honestly? Go read about radical unschooling for a start.

I would much prefer my kid attended a school that educated rather than got high SATs scores.

People do understand that 'passing SATS' is a completely different thing from 'having been educated to a high standard' don't they?

To the point that any group of children scoring super high SATS have almost certainly LOST OUT on their actual education!

The only way to pass exams at a high level is to practice passing exams. Education lives somewhere else entirely.

YABU to think that SATS results have any importance to anyone, anywhere, ever.

However, if you feel that your DCs are further behind in things like reading, writing, spelling, maths etc. than they should be for their age/school year - then of course YANBU to question it.

Some of the responses here are harsh. The OP may not know that it is the norm on MN to express nothing but contempt for tests and work towards tests. It's only learning if it involves 'messy play' or 'free flow play' apparently hmm

Not at all. DS1 is 19, DS2 is 15 and takes his GCSE's this year. They have had many tests & exams over the years that did actually matter, and have more to come this year. I have no contempt whatsoever for these or the learning/teaching aimed towards passing them.

And then there are primary school SATS. Secondary schools don't use them (despite what your primary school might tell you), nobody uses them for anything other than publishing in league tables. They serve no actual positive use. They cause undue and unnecessary stress for young pupils and primary school teachers and for what? Nothing.

DD is in Year 1, and her class teacher has already had to start teaching something (maths related I think), which she would rather be teaching in Year 3 - because they know it will form part of their Year 2 SATS next year. She's only 5, and it's already started!

@trifleorbust

You're a secondary teacher, aren't you?

It was me who said 'abnormal' in direct response to the OP asking of her and her husband's response "Is this normal?".

I agree that the MN and beyond trend is to have disdain for any form of structured learning and I disagree with this. I also agree with you saying that fundamentals are a necessity and if missed in KS1 take much more effort to learn throughout an education and the child will likely be playing catch up.

However, I think that staff have enough to worry about with SATS and other tables and metrics without parents becoming obsessed with them. That's why I asked the OP how she felt her children were progressing.

santa that is really sad. Teaching to the test really REALLY shouldn't be something that happens aged 5.

Ketchuponeverythingplease: Oh do sod off, Ketchup. Radical unschooling? Don't shove your marginal approach in my face and call me 'foolish' for advocating standard approaches that have worked for thousands of children for hundreds of years. Fine, if you want to experiment with your kids' education, please do so, but that doesn't make other people idiots.

I don't think it's fair to call the OP abnormal. As parents we worry about all sorts of things, and there is a very wide spectrum of normal! If you're worried about your child's academic standard, that he or she isn't where they should be academically for their age, or that they're not understanding basic maths/grammar concepts then that's something to meet with their class teacher about. If the school's getting bad SATs results then that's something for the school to worry about. As long as your child's progress is ok then neither you nor your child need worry. Some secondary schools use SATs results to stream Y7 children in certain subjects initially, but this then changes throughout the year based on their actual performance. But most secondary schools do not. It's better to have a happy child who can enjoy their last year of primary school, rather than one who's stressed out about these really not very important exams.

wettunwindee: Fair enough. I thought the tone was a little harsh but I don't disagree with you in principle.

It sounds like a lovely school where the teachers are not putting ridiculous pressure on children to perform like monkeys for a pointless test.

Exactly. Well said!

How do you know all these things, have you seen the teachers teaching plan and SOW for each subject?
They have to follow the curriculum and were perhaps stating that the depth they go into is fine for the time they have, maybe not as much as you would like but quite acceptable to teachers, head and Ofstead.

wet maybe the people of MN have gained their disdain of all things SAT related from reading the peer reviewed literature on what constitutes education that promotes deep over surface learning?

Its pretty much education 101 that teaching to the test is guaranteed to promote useless non-transferable learning. Why the UK education system is now based on teaching to the test escapes me.